topic Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help? in Sexuality and gender identity

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

Quercus — Sat, 14 Sep 2019 04:22:17 GMT

Hi everyone,

Today I saw a news article (and I'm usually way out of the loop so most likely this is very old news) about the singer Sam Smith asking to be referred to as 'they or them' as they are considering a sex change.

It raised a feeling of anxiety in me that seems to come up all the time...

I couldn't care less about judging other people's sexual identity (that's their business just as mine is my own)... But I do care about hurting people's feelings and saying something unintentionally hurtful.

I grew up in rural WA and never met anyone who identified openly as anything but heterosexual until I went to the city for uni. At school one of the most commonly heard phrases at the time for something friends didn't like was "that's so gay". My family weren't intentionally discriminatory but I felt there was an expectation of what they felt was 'normal' (far out I hate that word).

Most of my life I have felt ignorant and I feel awkward and uncomfortable in conversations. I'm constantly feeling people feel judged by me and am unsure of how to improve this.

Which brings me to my question. Does anyone feels able to share experiences of things that felt welcoming and inclusive? How can I be more accepting and respectful without seeming patronising or ending up feeling like a total idiot?

Thanks in advance.

Nat

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

White_Rose — Sat, 14 Sep 2019 05:47:58 GMT

Hello Nat

This is an interesting topic. Thanks for raising it. It is uncomfortable to be not quite certain about what is going on or how to respond in a suitable manner. I think when we show a genuine enthusiasm and respect toward anything or anyone that message comes through even if the words are not quite right.

We all have our own views on just about everything and those views are shaped by our upbringing. Not much we can do about that until we start thinking about what we do understand and believe in. This is where we can demonstrate respect to the views of other people by being informed. I do wonder though if we can be informed on every topic. There are so many topics/shades of opinion/activities/beliefs that it is hard to be fully informed. There's nothing wrong in saying I don't know.

If the other person expects a fully informed reply no doubt they will be disappointed but I would hope they were accepting of your words. The reality is that we do not know everything about everything. Or at least I would be surprised if this were the case. I understand about hurting someone's feelings and I agree. The reality is when we offer our knowledge or belief it is always a risk the other person may not agree and may choose to be offended. And that's the point. We are not in charge of other people's feelings. All we can manage are our own thoughts and feelings and demonstrate respect in our conversations.

Perhaps this where we need to define our boundaries. What am I prepared to accept from others and what am I prepared to do to be polite and respectful. Once we make these decisions I think it becomes easier to hold various conversations. We need to be comfortable with the person we are now, give our views or say I don't know and let the other person decide how they feel.

I found this in a course I started a couple of months ago. All the others had already met and I felt very much the new kid. Would my comments be accepted or would they think I was stupid. What if I did not understand what everyone was talking about. Perhaps they will think I am a know-all if I offer my thoughts. Well it did not turn out like that. We did disagree on some things but it was the comments that they disagreed with, not me. I felt so at home once I realised this.

After all my words I come down to saying, we get on better when we are happy with ourselves and have a genuine interest in other people.

Mary

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

Quercus — Sat, 14 Sep 2019 15:57:26 GMT

As always Mary, thank you.

You've got this amazing ability to pick up on the heart of my problem nearly every time!

This made me stop and think for a good while...

We need to be comfortable with the person we are now, give our views or say I don't know

It makes sense. I'm not comfortable with who I am and am a people pleaser from way back. Perhaps this is my problem. I'm so worried about upsetting others that I have no idea what I feel sometimes. So I don't feel genuine.

Thank you for reminding me about considering intention. I forget sometimes that people aren't always judging me as harshly as I judge myself. It makes sense that people might accept that I meant well even if I did my usual foot in mouth thing.

I like reading your replies. Thank you Mary.

❤ nat

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

romantic_thi3f — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:57:42 GMT

Hi Nat (and a wave to Mary)

Thanks for your post and for bringing this up; this is actually something that's been on my mind a fair bit.

I agree with Mary. While I'm not really the audience you're looking for with this post, I think that it comes down to intentions and respect. Do I care enough about this person to try and use their preferred pronouns? Am I able to own my mistakes if I've upset them even if unintentionally? Am I willing to be open to things I don't fully understand? Am I willing to advocate and try and call things out (like racism) when I see it? Can I even recognise my own privilege? For me, the answer is yes - and I think that's enough.

I read a list of gender identities and I think there might have been 50 on that page. I won't remember them all, but I don't think there's an expectation that I should. Honestly I'll never be able to keep up with the forever changing language, but I'm always going to do my best.

If you feel like you are ignorant, you can learn! But for what it's worth - you do care, you mean well and I think that's the most important thing.

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

Quercus — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 07:03:11 GMT

Hi RT and thanks for your input, it is very helpful too.

As to not being the audience of this thread please don't worry. I have gotten a lot from your reply and Mary's.

Wow... 50 gender identities!?! You're serious? My goodness that is a bit overwhelming.

I suppose I'll just stick with asking in my usual awkward, blurt it out way and hope for understanding.

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

Guest_9043 — Tue, 03 Dec 2019 09:53:15 GMT

Hi Nat,

How wonderful of you to even ask and take an interest. I can help a bit here hopefully.

I am Non Binary. Born Female, staying Female. For many years I identified as a Lesbian. That does not work for me anymore. I've had to re explore. In short I engage with both male and female aspects of myself.

It's very difficult. I dress more like a male because it's what I feel comfortable wearing. On a certain day I may feel like wearing a singlet maybe (a bit girly for me) but I do like singlets.

I engage personality wise with both sexes within myself without the male ego and bravado attached and engage with the feminine aspects of tenderness, compassion, love and so on. It's harder than it sounds and it's taken me a very long time to get to this point for me.

As for what I'm called. Depending on who I'm around I sometimes prefer him and sometimes if that's too hard I like to be referred to as they. They because I'm two sexes in one body.

I could say heaps more but will leave it at that.

Lee.

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

Quercus — Wed, 04 Dec 2019 22:07:46 GMT

Hi Lee,

Thank you so much for sharing your experience and thoughts!

It was both fascinating and confusing to read how you feel about your identity. I suspect it is confusing because I can't relate from experience.

You mentioned having days you feel feminine and days you do not. I found it confusing because I feel like that very often although I identity as heterosexual.

Is it ok if I ask if it bothers you if people ask what terms to use?

Thanks again. It was so helpful to read your post.

Nat

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

Guest_9043 — Wed, 04 Dec 2019 22:37:38 GMT

Hi Nat,

The question you asked I cannot answer because I do not know yet. I have only just begun by journey as Non Binary. I really dislike labels a lot but there you have it anyway.

As for your confusion around feeling like both sexes if you feel like doing it you can research the divine feminine and divine masculine.

In truth we are all both sexes. That's fact. We may be born Female it does not mean we have no masculine in us. We may be born male it does not mean we do not have no feminine in us. Society has tripped this all up really. It's no secret. It is not hidden. It's just conformity. If you are male you must "act like a male",if you are female you must "act like a female" I don't do conformity. If you don't like me then bugger off really cause I do not seek approval.

That's me though. Being me has not been inconsequential but I'm away from the people who cannot support me because of their own demons. Not my monkey not my circus. Good luck to them.

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

eight — Thu, 05 Dec 2019 00:47:01 GMT

that “I found it confusing because I feel like that very often”, there’s a word for that - gender non-conforming. word for the way you present and gnc doesn’t exactly imply you’re lgbt - you can be gnc even if you’re cis or het

(some subcultures have different words n roles like this but they usually have a lot of history and implications; don’t call yourself butch if you’re not a lesbian, don’t say you’re a twink if you’re not a gay man, etc)

(maybe i’m being a lot more technical than lee. me n them are very different people when it comes to gender and spirituality i’m realising)

also the thought of someone asking what terms you use really depends on what non-binary person you’re talking about: its okay for me to explain yeag im an nb lesb and just use nything, she/he/they but you might know a diff nonbinary person who hates having to explain themselves over and over. its a varied-ass bunch.

what i know is try to take a hint, if its an online space see if they have anything up discussing their gender or how they’d like to be preferred, asking politely goes a long way rather than being passive-aggresive about their identity. (that isn’t vaguing u or anything i think you’ve been carrrying yourself well!! i’ve just seen many a cis person getting all uptight over an nb person and being upset when they’re rightfully blown off. just Be Kind)

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

Guest_9043 — Thu, 05 Dec 2019 02:07:55 GMT

Hi eight,

Thanks for providing further information around this for other folk. I obviously know exactly what you are saying,however it helps folk to have a bit more understanding and it's nice to see people taking a genuine interest in this for a change.

I'm not one to get too deep into technicalities of it all so I'm grateful you have further explained here very well.

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

Quercus — Thu, 05 Dec 2019 07:02:49 GMT

Hi Eight and 2Quik 😊

Woah I feel in so far over my head it's scary.

I'm embarrassed to admit I had to use google to try understand your post Eight. Perhaps it sounds super ignorant or lazy to people familiar with terminology but I know I'm not alone feeling lost.

Can I check if I'm reading it ok...

Are you saying people can identify as having no specific gender regardless of their sexual preferences and the fact they feel ok with the sex of their physical body?

I agree about labels. The more confusing we make it the more uncomfortable it can feel. Even just now I felt so stupid having no idea what you meant.

People can sometimes assume ignorance or mistakes with technicalities mean you are lazy or small minded, but I find I'm often too scared to ask for help to try work it out because it makes me feel very stupid not to understand.

It was stunning to me to see you use the words 'twink' and 'butch'! I thought they were offensive terms!? Maybe I am around small minded people too often but I've only ever heard those words used as an insult! Is it kind of like how African Americans keep using that awful N word or are these terms normal and acceptable for all people to use?

Hmmm. I think I need to ask if there is a website that you both feel explains abbreviations and common terms accurately? That might help.

Above all... Thank you. It isn't an easy conversation to have and I am really appreciating your patience with me.

Nat

Passive aggression makes sense to me because it can be a way to defend yourself when you feel very ignorant or confused. Part of me felt like lashing out when you used abbreviations because I felt excluded and then labelled. Kind of funny/ridiculous when you consider how much exclusion and labelling people in the LGBT community experience and yet here I am feeling defensive!

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

Guest_9043 — Thu, 05 Dec 2019 08:38:53 GMT

Hi Nat,

One of the things I love about you is your honesty and telling us how you truly feel. For a long time I have wanted to bridge the divide between the "straight" community and the LGBTQI community. I actually cannot so this is a nice experience for me. I don't care that you are hetero, completely acceptable because that is who you are and there is no wrong in it. That is all we (the LBTQI community) have ever wanted. I don't see you as ignorant. How could you be when you are right here trying to learn and understand? The majority of Australians do not understand nor want to so you are a breathe of fresh air.

You said : "Are you saying people can identify as having no specific gender regardless of their sexual preferences and the fact they feel ok with the sex of their physical body"? Yes, spot on. That is me. For now while I am re exploring I am Non Binary. I have not identified with a term for my sexuality. I identify as Non Binary without lesbian at the end. I do not know what yet. You can get a lesbian that will identify as a non binary lesbian. I hope that makes sense. I am sure eight will have their response.

The world wants labels to understand. I don't like them, I would just prefer to say I am just me but the world makes that very difficult to accept just me when you are not clearly defined. Hmmm I think you are being too hard on yourself saying you feel stupid because you do not understand. You have not grown up in our world so how would you understand everything immediately?

Unfortunately people do use those words as insults. They should not be use as insults and taunts. For the sake of staying on topic here, in our community they are not seen as offensive. I do NOT like the N word at all. I really dislike it immensely. However in that community, N's even call each other N's. It isnt used in a derogatory way as opposed to a white person using the word N because it is meant in a derogatory way. I am sure you know the history of that in itself.

I am not sure of a website per se, I may try see if there is one that a straight person has not written. I say straight because they really have not had much experience sometimes and I don't want you to be misled.

It usually is not an easy conversation to have, with you it is a pleasure because you are respectful and genuine.

Follow on.

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

eight — Thu, 05 Dec 2019 11:50:36 GMT

oh god oh christ im so sorry for throwing you for a loop down there ^^;; probably should’ve taken the time to actually type all of that out instead

also lee. i dont subscribe to being fully girl and i express this in ways like changing my name to be more androgynous (but also im Edgy™ and think eight is a way cooler name than whatever birthname i had) dressing more boyishly and behaving masc. i like girls and non-binary people who are woman-aligned but not men or male-aligned people. non-binary lesbian’s just a label that works for me - that’s the concisest way for me to describe my experiences and they feel like a refuge to me eh?

they can intersect for me too - bein lesbian can mess with gender. i’m a weird girl i don’t like boys and it makes me alienated and detached from what women should be. a really good metaphor i’ve seen used for this (i can’t remember where i’ve got it from sorry) is comparing how i feel to the sun - it lights up the world and it warms your blood but it’s able to melt wings and sear skin if you get too close. maybe that’s too abstracted or proseish but i feel it in my bones, you know?

butch/twink and words like it i’d say aren’t offensive since they’re language lgbt people made that cishets tried to weaponise. i can clearly see why - it’s bad to reject femininity it’s bad to live for the women in your life instead of guys, you shouldn’t be so effeminate and homo. you can say and use it but not for yourself since e.g., “butch” is part of the butch/femme lesbian subculture so its misleading for straight women to use on themselves. i wouldn’t know too much about twink but i’m also not. a gay man lol

the way how black people use the n-word is something that’s called reclamation - its a movement to shift the power of that word from their white oppressors to them, but if a nonblack says that its comes off as venomous and racist. happens in the lgbt community (and. probably any marginalised group) but remember not everyone reclaims, they may only use x word and that doesn’t mean they use y, and you should think twice before using slurs even on someone who does. all fun n games when i say i’m a dyke but if someone else called me that i would punch their lights out simple and clean!

also on a website of terminology.. i dont know if there’d be a specific one-stop shop, i remember looking into glaad’s reference stuff but they’re more lgb-focused and this thread is about trans issues, yes? i’ll hafta keep lookin

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

Bluray — Thu, 05 Dec 2019 11:59:57 GMT

Wow what an awesome convo. Really interesting. Learnt heaps. Which lead me to read some things.

It was simplified by saying how we are conditioned by society at birth, wearing blue for boys and pink for girls, only giving certain toys for each sexy to play with etc. And the saddest part is when the child picks up a toy not meant for their sex and then made to feel unaccepted.

To me people are just people.

Oh and Nat try replacing the word normal with natural. I think it feels better.

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

Guest_9043 — Fri, 06 Dec 2019 08:36:05 GMT

Hi Eight.

I do like the name actually. It's edgy and different.

Thanks for further explaining what you do and don't feel comfortable with. Of course I have absolutely no judgement. If that's you and your happiness, more power to you. 🙂

Me, I don't know I still feel saw raw and in pain from current life circumstances so putting my exploration on hold for a bit.

Lee.

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

Quercus — Sat, 07 Dec 2019 12:51:10 GMT

Greetings again 2Quik and Eight and welcome to you too Bluray!

I'm loving this conversation. It is exactly the open discussion I've always wanted to have and struggled with.

Bluray substituting natural is a great idea. The term normal is one I dislike but I'd never thought of natural. That feels like a better choice of word. I did a bit of reading too and was stoked that when Eight mentioned butch/femme subculture I actually had some idea (yay for expanding our understanding of the world!).

I find as a straight/hetero/whatever person it can be so difficult to work out what is offensive and what's ok. It has helped a lot to hear how other people feel and to have the freedom to learn more without being judged. I appreciate it very much.

This year I learnt someone I'd known for some time was gay and in my usual blunt way blurted out how on earth did I not know this about you!? Do you have a partner!? I immediately went bright red and apologised because everyone looked a bit shocked and I wasn't sure why.

To top it off I then got confused about if apologising was even worse because I'd say the same thing (excitedly and loudly... Unfortunately that's just me) if I found out a new fact about anyone and it wouldn't be something I would think to apologise for.

I think sometimes it is like I try too hard to not single someone out and it always makes everything worse! Bloody foot in mouth syndrome. If you're Edgy Eight my trademark would be Awkward for sure!

Bluray...you mentioned how society seems to want to label everyone. Especially with gender. Someone told me once to think of how many forms, surveys etc ask for your gender. It made me realise how deeply labels are embedded into our society. She said that her dream for the future was that people were seen first as PEOPLE. Not gender, sexuality, religion or colour. At the time I remember thinking I like that idea but where on earth do we even start?!

My son told me this year (he's 6) that pink was a girls colour. It upset me a lot but Hubby felt differently. He said part of learning to manage in life was to not make yourself a target. And that whether I like it or not kids that don't conform even slightly will be bullied. That upset me even more. Then Miss 4 piped up and told us all pink is just a colour and it doesn't belong to anyone. I took that as a sign positive change is slowly starting.

Thank you everyone

❤Nat

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

LittleMissAlice — Thu, 19 Dec 2019 13:26:09 GMT

Hey Quercus, it kinda looks like your problems already solved but i don't know, I think randomly inputting information makes me feel useful or something? I don't know

Anywho, I just wanted to suggest, if you're still having this issue (which you might not be for all I know, my computer wouldn't load half the replies so I have no idea what's going on really, sorry in advance if I accidentally plagiarise someone), you might want to check out some of those websites that say stuff like "commonly asked questions about LGBT+"? They have some really useful info on what's considered acceptable or unacceptable in conversation (ie. Don't ask people about their bits first up, lol).

Also, and probably more importantly, just make sure you're listening to what people are saying. I've been trans for a while now, and the first person I told was my best friend. They were really supportive at first, but they never bothered to use the pronouns I told them I'd prefer, or the name I'd chosen (Marie, btw). They never saw it as a big deal, but it cut me really deeply and I still haven't fully healed from that (which probably sounds really dumb but *shrugs*).

Anyway, so yeah, just try to be supportive of anyone you meet, because sometimes the really little things can be pretty offensive. You seem really nice though, so don't worry!

- Marie 😘

Anxious about language surrounding sexuality... Help?

Quercus — Thu, 19 Dec 2019 16:27:59 GMT

Hi again Marie and thank you for joining in and helping me.

Randomly jumping in is awesome and I wish more people would give it a go. It always amazes me that only 20% of members ever post. That's a lot of people quietly reading.

I read and replied to your thread about feeling fake before I saw this so fingers crossed I haven't said anything offensive. If I have feel free to rip me a new one. I am ok with criticism. How else can we learn?

Righto I'm going to have to find some websites tomorrow and do some reading. Perhaps it's curiosity but for some reason I like hearing how people here feel more than generalised information.

I laughed in embarrassment when you said don't ask people about their bits. It's an obvious one really but I'm sure people still ask. I've never asked that thank goodness but then again I did ask my straight male housemates at uni if being circumcised was common or not and that's probably just as bad. Damn my lack of filter.

I'm stoked to meet you Marie. The forums don't have a lot of Trans members who write so please know whatever you share will be extra helpful because I'm sure there are people reading feeling excluded because there are few members discussing issues specific to Trans people.

Nat 😊

PS oh my goodness yes names are important! It did hurt when my in-laws called me Natalia (Natalie doesn't work in Polish because female names end in A). They didn't mean harm but it wasn't who I am so I felt like they didn't care. It's sad that your friend didn't make the effort.