topic Gender stuff in Sexuality and gender identity

Gender stuff

sparkvark — Sat, 30 Jul 2016 12:48:55 GMT

When I pay attention to what I actually want (rather than burying it behind what should be/must be/is), I want to look more like the 'opposite' gender. I have kind of wanted this for quite some time, but it wasn't a tangible thought until a couple of years ago when I found out that trans was actually a real thing that real people could be. Having spent a bit of time exploring that thought, I don't think I need to take medical steps to be ok. I certainly couldn't deal with the social or career consequences it would have if I were to come out as trans (even non-binary).

I'm not 100% sure where that puts me. The best I can do is to be 'out' to myself (as what???) and wear the clothes I want to wear under circumstances where it won't cause contention with anyone else. But that's not quite enough, because during those times I want to be able to "pass" to myself. Except it's impossible to do that, especially without changes that other people can notice. It might be impossible altogether even if I needed to medically transition. My stupid face is just all kinds of wrong for anything even if I can convince myself the clothes are looking ok and are hiding the body stuff.

I just don't know what I need to do to feel normal.

Gender stuff

Zeal — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 06:36:22 GMT

Hi Sparkvark,

Welcome to the forum!

I don't know much on this subject, so I'll link you to a few previous threads on this forum that could be of interest 🙂

https://www.beyondblue.org.au/get-support/online-forums/sexuality-and-gender-identity/discovering-my-gender-what-am-i-#qk3W1XHzvGGEbv8AAOnT_A

https://www.beyondblue.org.au/get-support/online-forums/sexuality-and-gender-identity/withdrawal-from-world

Hopefully others will reply too!

Best wishes,

Gender stuff

Gruffudd — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 10:56:12 GMT

Hi Sparkvark,

Welcome... What you are talking about, all those feeling churning around, it isn't a nice place to be. I have my own thread exploring my version of the issues.

I think it helps to find a community, places like the gender centre, but also smaller LGBTI groups of people the same kind of ages and experiences, and to have somewhere in life where you can let your guard down a little and see what is comfortable in that environment (what you are like when not being judged by others).

With body image for non-binary people I suspect there are good and bad days. Don't forget to keep on with those things that you enjoy doing and to take care of yourself.

One thing I can say is that you are worthwhile and things will get better, that is my experience. It takes time.

Happy to talk about all the ins and outs of it all.

Rob.

Gender stuff

sparkvark — Mon, 01 Aug 2016 08:19:12 GMT

Thanks SM, I did have a browse through some of the threads here before deciding whether it was a good environment to post in. But it was definitely worth having another read of those two threads 🙂 Cheers.

Thanks for your reply Rob. I have had a look at your thread, and I noticed that you were also trying to narrow down how to describe who you are. It can certainly be difficult to stick a label on it.

Unfortunately I really don't think I'm up to trying to navigate LGBTI spaces in-person. I feel like I wouldn't belong, because I'm not sure of who I am and am not strong enough to stand up for it. Perhaps for lack of a better term I'm more of a "transtrender". After all, why else would it take me a quarter of a century to form a coherent thought about what I wanted to look like? Why else would my preoccupation with gender be on physical appearance rather than roles or socialisation or anything else? Why else would I be wanting to pick and choose what physical features I'd change vs. keep? It just does not make sense as a legitimate experience.

I also don't want this part of me to be associated with any part of my regular social interactions. I absolutely cannot have anyone from my real life find out about this, and in-person groups seem like too big of a risk. Add that to social anxiety and rubbish conversation skills where I can barely hold a conversation about what happened over the weekend, and it just can't happen.

Maybe my best bet is to try and forget the whole thing.

Gender stuff

sparkvark — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 10:52:54 GMT

Well I know what I said about it not being a real experience, but I don't think that's necessarily true. I'm not intentionally making any of this up for kicks. In a lot of ways I'm privileged in being assigned female because there's so much more I can "get away with" in terms of personality/behaviours/attitudes/presentation. I may look in the mirror and see a malformed putty-faced blob when I try to see 'female' and find it impossible to trick myself into seeing 'male' but at least I'm allowed to exist without insult or violence if I don't tell anyone what's in my mind. Although it would likely be better if I wasn't.

Gender stuff

Gruffudd — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 10:55:14 GMT

I think it is helpful to think on what sits comfortably when there is no mirror and no one else around. I suspect everyone puts on a bit of a front for the world.

One thing I have noticed is that the people with the worst prejudice are fairly unable to pick up on gender and anyway, especially if you don't quite match their stereotype.

So I'm thinking a good question is, what do I have the ability to control or change? Certainly how positive or harsh I am on myself is one of those things.

Gender stuff

Paul — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 22:45:57 GMT

Hi sparkvark.

Thanks for posting - this is a topic that I've become interested in from a different perspective. My interest is more gender roles and stereotyping - the things you mentioned early on in your first post.

The most important part about gender is how you feel. Sometimes that can come from within, for example another person on our forums puts on boots and she feels an amazing sense of relief and more masculine (she is lesbian) so for her, it's act of wearing boots that can change her whole mood and persona.

I don't mean to trivialise as I understand the struggle you have explained in your post. My intention is to say that there's more to gender than just a particular look. Again as you describe in your post, it's a feeling. It's also a mindset, mannerisms (to a point), sometimes it can be what you do, who you are friends with, what you watch on TV, what you wear, your hobbies (sometimes). All of these things HELP us to feel a particular gender. There is then simply allowing the thoughts and feelings of being the gender you feel affinity with.

What I'm trying to say is that the important part of being the gender we identify with is our mind. Not how we look, its how we feel and there are many ways to achieve feeling gender freedom than just passing as a gender image.

Warm regards

Paul

Gender stuff

sparkvark — Sun, 14 Aug 2016 11:22:03 GMT

I understand that gender is more than just physical appearance. I suppose the reason I’m focusing on that for myself is because it’s the main aspect that’s not really within the bounds of control but also seems like it’d be a quick fix for other stuff if it was already sorted out. Not sure if that makes sense.

Clothing-wise, I’ve gradually started choosing my own clothes to wear, rather than the “least worst” thing that someone else picked out as acceptable. Socially, I’ve been able to make some progress with not censoring things that don’t fit in. In both of these aspects I’m still navigating past the ingrained thought of “if you do that, they’ll think you’re _____.” I’m years behind in terms of learning how to have conversations about topics of interest. It’s still something that can be worked on, but is going to take a pretty long time if I get there at all.

Actual appearance, I don’t even have the nerve to change my hairstyle lest I get judged for it in the same way AND have to deal with whatever comments/reactions people may wish to convey. I need to sort out my diet and start working out to make some minimal improvement. But somewhere along the way I stopped being a real person and maybe if I could physically see myself as one then it’d be worth fixing the personality behind that.

Gender stuff

Paul — Sun, 14 Aug 2016 21:20:14 GMT

Hey again sparkvark,

When I read your post I feel your pain and I also feel like there is something other than gender that is upsetting you. I get a sense of someone who is not being allowed to be themselves - where does this come from? I know you mentioned people judging you and we all dislike that however my sense of not being allowed says that it's a bit deeper than that.

Have you spoken to someone about depression before?

Paul

Gender stuff

sparkvark — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 12:56:33 GMT

Thanks for your message Paul.

I've been trying to figure out how to reply and what I want to say. I suppose the feeling of not being allowed is a combination of things. My experience when expressing certain interests/thoughts/wants used to be being met with disapproval or disinterest - that still happens with friends now, but seems to happen less with work colleagues. The last time I had a close friend with a lot of shared interests was probably my brother before we both became teenagers and drifted apart. I felt like I couldn't talk about my interests to any of my friends in high school and had nothing to talk about with them as a result. And now I don't even know how to have conversations about things that interest me, and most of the time I can't even keep up a respectable level of interest.

I tried seeing someone for depression about 10 years ago. The only thing that ever came from it was an understanding that maybe I have a bit of social anxiety, but I wasn't receptive to that and didn't understand it at the time. The symptoms that caused me to seek help seem to be on and off and generally related to stress levels. So since then I've only had 2 separate counselling sessions about 4 yrs apart when the symptoms became intense for a longer period of time, but I never followed up the introductory sessions and just waited it out.

Regarding my gender, I'm leaning towards it being personally acceptable for the moment to try and take it on a day-by-day basis rather than trying to define it. Although I still need to figure out a way to accept the things that can't be changed.

Gender stuff

Paul — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 20:37:25 GMT

Hey sparkvark,

Thanks heaps for your reply, I know it was difficult to put into words and I hear you about certain interests/thoughts/wants being met with disapproval or disinterest. That really sucks, especially when it affects your friendships.

I hope we can work together to break through the disapproval and disinterest as I'd very much like to help you feel better and find that approval and spark.

I've got an idea. On the site there's a K10 checklist. This is a bit like a temperature check on how you're feeling. We could look at that and get a rough idea of how you're feeling. This is a legitimate checklist that is sometimes used by professionals as well. What i'm thinking is if we run through the list and see the result we can also use that to plan the next steps as well. Having difficulty working through things, especially fundamental things like gender can be part of depression, whether depression is making it difficult or long running difficulties have you feeling depressed, perhaps it's time to reexamine the depression part as well and mention that when you chat with someone at a gender centre.

From the menus, "The facts" - "anxiety and depression checklist (K10)"

The K10 is just a guide, but it will help us with the next steps.

Would you like to run through the checklist and let me know what the result is? (It's a short checklist)

I like your idea of taking gender thoughts and feelings and making it personally acceptable, that's an awesome approach.

I've found that when we come across things that are difficult to accept and can't be changed, if we look at the problem we are an inquisitive toddler holding something unfamiliar. They usually hold it at a bit of a distance and look at it from lots of angles. They will then run a few tests on it like feel it, squeeze it, shake it and then when they trust it a bit, bring it a bit closer so other senses can be used. This can happen really quickly or really slowly. My analogy here is that our minds work a bit like kids sometimes, so if we exploit that it helps us to keep the thought or feeling at a small distance so it can be examined without it affecting us straight away, we can then control how it affects us after we examine inquisitively and without judging it or ourselves. That mental and emotional distance helps a lot.

Let me know how you go with the K10 and also your thoughts on the above exercise (it takes some practice).

Till next time, take care.

Paul

Gender stuff

sparkvark — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 22:26:15 GMT

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your post. I tried the K10 checklist and got a 23 Moderate. I’ve been feeling generally alright recently. I’ve been pretty stressed out about something in particular and it’s still doing my head in, but that’s been distracting me from any of the other stuff. Pleasantly surprised that there haven’t been any serious destructive thoughts for awhile other than those directly related to the stressful thing. I’m sure they’ll return in their own time but am not going to complain about the break from them.

I haven’t been remembering to use that exercise very often, but it seems like it could be helpful with a bit of
practice.

As far as next steps go, I'm not sure that there are any. The resources I've seen are tailored to people who need to medically transition and that's nowhere near where I'm at right now.

Gender stuff

Paul — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 23:58:22 GMT

Hi sparkvark,

Thanks for doing the checklist - it can be a good starting point for a chat with your Dr about how you're feeling if you ever visit because you're feeling crappy.

Do you feel like talking about the thing that's getting you down at the moment?

Paul

Gender stuff

sparkvark — Sun, 04 Sep 2016 01:20:47 GMT

Hi Paul,

Yeah I guess so.

No thanks, there's nothing to say about the other thing until it's over and done with.

Gender stuff

Paul — Wed, 07 Sep 2016 21:10:51 GMT

Hi sparkvark,

I've been wondering how you are. Has the other thing settled down yet?

What else has been happening?

Something occurred to me, the gender centre(s) you mentioned who only seemed to want to deal with medical transition - that sounds like they weren't listening to you. Have you tried others?

I know a great therapist who might be able to help, or we could chat more here.

Paul

Gender stuff

sparkvark — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 11:18:15 GMT

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your message.

Unfortunately the other thing isn't really going away any time soon, so there's plenty more of that to go.

I never got in touch with any gender centre, just looked at what information was available about them online and that's how it seemed.

Nah it's fine, there's nothing more for me to say and no mental space for it anyway with the other stuff going on.

Thanks anyway.

Gender stuff

Paul — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 22:49:02 GMT

Hey sparkvark,

Thanks for getting back to me.

Don't forget there's the beyond blue 24 hour phone help available and we're always here to listen about anything without judgement.

Take care

Paul