topic Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment in Relationship and family issues

How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

David35 — Sun, 12 May 2024 10:32:51 GMT

Several years ago, mum got bladder cancer. She ultimately survived but the journey for the next few years was incredibly stressful. I live with mum, so I'm a carer somewhat too. During this time, my elder brother and his wife virtually stopped talking to us. He used to ring every week, then it was every few months. His wife stopped talking altogether. Throughout this period I suffered several mental breakdowns as a result of the ongoing stress with no support, bearing in mind my dad had died of cancer in 2016. At times, I was even mocked and made fun of for struggling to cope, such was the lack of empathy for me. I eventually got counseling with several counsellors and charities to help get me better.

But the general consensus was that I had developed a panic disorder and mild PTSD as a result of the relentless stress I was under to both look after mum's physical and mental health all by myself. As such there is now a massive gulf in the relationship between my brother and mum and I. He never once bothered to ask how I was doing and his wife has never once asked how mum was going. At the height of mum's treatment he was more concerned about what financial handouts he could get from mum rather than supporting either of us. His response to all of this was that "I have my own family."

So my question is, given that he is trying to make amends, and given that he won't accept any criticisms we make of him, how does anyone forgive someone for this behaviour? We no longer see his kids (maybe once a year if we're lucky), no longer get any updates, pictures, news, etc. It's like we are problems not people. The last few years have been so stressful, not just because of mum's cancer treatment, but the amount of stress they have incoporated into both our lives because we both had the expectations that he would be there for us, and he simply turned his back on us. How does someone cope with this?

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

Croix — Sun, 12 May 2024 12:08:51 GMT

Dear David35~

I'm glad you mum is better and she and you are of a like mind abut your brother and sister in law.

While you have made it very clear in your previous posts that their motivations for being in contact at all was in hopes of financial reward . Not concern for you or your mum.

You mention you brothers is "he is trying to make amends" however you do not say what steps your bother or SIL are doing. You now are wondering about forgiving.

Well I guess your mum and you might have differing views on this - have you talked to her? Forgiveness does not happen straight away after a long periods of blatant selfishness and lack of care. So rather than thinking there may be an obligation to forgive why not just wait and see what happens over time?

Making amends is not something that can be done just with words or explanations in these sort of circumstances. Instead if it was me I would expect to see a complete reversal of behavior, showing genuine care for both of you , contrition and acknowledgement for the ill done, and never alluding to or expecting any financial gain at any time. Just plain help as needed.

This is a pretty steep list of expectations, but the hurt done and total selfishness does indicated people that are not easily going ot change thier ways. Perhps your mum's age and condition may have brought about a change of heart, then again maybe they are thinking of the will (my apologies for being blunt).

I'd need some convincing over a long time. Maybe you are are forgiving.

Croix

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

therising — Sun, 12 May 2024 18:16:47 GMT

Hi David

Not sure whether you've been able to identify all your brother's behavioural traits. Sounds like you've been able to identify a lot of them. I've found it pays to get a better sense of what or who we're working with. It can be surprising when, after decades, there's a sudden revelation when it comes to a person's traits. Kinda like 'What is this emotion within me that I'm feeling when I speak with this person on occasion or when I'm on the verge of speaking to them? Oh my gosh, that's actually the feeling of dread. I'm just waiting for them to say something degrading towards me. I'm dreading it'. So, bamm, we've identified their behaviour as being dreadful (it fills us with dread). Stressful, it fills us with stress. Degrading, it fills us with a sense of being less than and a sense of being brought down, which can feel depressing. Angering, it fills us with anger. So on and so on. Dreadful, stressful, degrading, depressing and angering can be prime traits in a person. Not good, when we're having to face them. Here comes the boundary setting...

'If you're going to be dreadful, stressful, degrading, depressing and angering, don't come anywhere near me. If you're going to bring me a sense of joy, support etc, I'm happy to catch up'. It can be far from easy to do with some people but I've found that with being confronting, if I can make light of it (so it doesn't feel so heavy) it can feel a little easier at times. I actually have to meet with a family member this Thursday, who occasionally fills me with dread. You never quite know what kind of mood they're going to be in. 'Am I going to have to walk on eggshells today?' kinda thing. If they do happen to be in an 'eggshell mood' I've considered saying to them 'Hang on a second, I can sense with my magic powers that you are being dreadful and triggering. I can feel it even if you can't'. Some may call that 'Being antagonistic' but I'd like to consider it as me not feeling stressed, angered or down. I'm feeling a sense of amusement instead.

I think when someone crosses a boundary, it will inevitably trigger some part of us. Whether they trigger the stresser in us, rager in us, the fearful or sad child in us, the intolerant part of us or something else, you can definitely feel that person crossing a line or boundary (thanks to an obvious emotional shift). 'Let me channel the comedian in me to push you back over that line' could be a mantra worth developing, one that leads to greater confidence. I think sometimes it can be easier to forgive when we and others develop respect for boundaries, while practicing not crossing them.

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

David35 — Mon, 13 May 2024 01:47:51 GMT

Croix,

Mum gets joyed when he rings, but it's like being drip-fed by the bare minimum of love (my perspective). There is no help with regards to managing mum's physical care (she's getting old). Although she is cancer free now, she still gets stressed about checkups. She had two in the last month and my brother forgot all about them. Both a colonoscopy which was delayed several years due to her bladder cancer treatment and a routine cystoscopy. You've described how I feel. On the one side of the ledger are words (I love you, we appreciate your help), but on the other side are actions (which are completely blank). No sharing of their kids lives with us anymore, no phone calls to check up on mum before any tests.
Several months ago he joked about mum paying the mortgage off for him. Knowing that I help control the finances, he started to guilt-trip me about it, because I still live at home. This is why, despite all his kind words and as much as I would like to forgive him, I don't want to be manipulated again. Put simply, I feel guilty at times because I still don't trust him. So I guess I was trying to gauge whether or not these feelings are justified based on his complete lack of concern both he and his wife have demonstrated over the years.

A few years ago I couldn't go up to their Christmas celebration because I was suffering a mental breakdown from the stress of looking after mum. But they were more "shocked" that I didn't go, rather than concerned for my own welfare. It was all about how my deterioration in mental health affected them.

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

David35 — Mon, 13 May 2024 01:58:36 GMT

TheRising,

Both mum and I feel nervous when he rings, because we don't know what mood he will be in, or how much anger, hatred will come pouring out. Despite everything we've been through (bear in mind, I have no dad to support me anymore with mum), and despite him making all his choices in life, he's always far worse off than anybody else. It's either his job, or his marriage, or his finances, all of which have been controlled by his choices in life. So I'm not sure why he expects me to feel sorry for him.

I think a part of is that we can't talk about any issues that concern us, mainly medical problems. Years ago I got mocked when I had shared some health scare with him (auto-immune kidney disease) which I wasn't sure would result in dialysis. His response was "Well, you do know that mum is going to die at some stage. You're going to have stand on your two feet at some point in your life."

He has been supportive of me getting counseling, but when I pointed out that a large part of the stress was caused by him turning his back on us and everything being left to me, he started to bully me and wouldn't take ownership of his behaviour. So it's not that I'm holding a grudge. I'm just cautious about his "kind words" excusing him of his treatment of us.

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

therising — Mon, 13 May 2024 07:35:09 GMT

Hi David

What you mention reminds me a lot of the family member I'm meeting with on Thursday. As long as there's no stress in his life, he's as lovely as pie. As long as you're doing what he thinks you should do, he's all good and supportive. As long as you don't mention anything that's going to trigger him, no probs. So, as you'd know, you're kind of left praying there's no stress going on in that person's life and they're not going to be triggered by what you're doing in life or what you're about to say. In other words, you have to do whatever it takes to manage their emotions. While you can work your backside off in ways of self understanding and self development, in order to get a handle on your own emotions and manage them, the other person won't necessarily take that same responsibility. As you mention, you could confront them (possibly as a new way of positively managing your nervous system) and there'll be no ownership when it comes to how they trigger it. As I write this, I can actually feel my nervous system ramping up. My breathing pattern has just changed and I can feel my own heartbeat. Just the mere thought of a certain person can be triggering. That's really not good, hey.

Regarding that standing on your own 2 feet comment, it sounds like your brother doesn't recognise how you and your mum have come to work as a team based on a whole variety of reasons (including your mum needing someone on her side after your dad's passing, on top of her health issues). You've been working hard under so many different and challenging conditions. To have someone come along and say, in one way or another, 'You also need to adhere to all my conditions, on top of that' can just be too much to handle. You should feel free to begin setting your own conditions for those around you. If they can't meet them then they've got some work to do.

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

David35 — Mon, 13 May 2024 11:07:56 GMT

That's like my own brother. Highly strung, highly stressed and highly ignorant of other people's emotions.

He actually dropped in today for mother's day, by himself. We haven't seen him since boxing day last year. It's obvious that despite being married, having 3 loving kids and an active social life, he's emotionally drowning. I think tha'ts why he talks down to people, corrects them, invalidates their feelings that only he knows how. Because his own emotional needs aren't met. Mum and I let him do the talking and I think for the first time he seemed to be honest with himself. He was in no rush to leave, which was unusual and I got the impression he's just exhausted with life; his job, his marriage, his demanding wife. I think having some understanding helps.

I think the reason he struggles with dealing with others' emotions/fears/concerns is that he hasn't dealt with his own. Both mum and I agreee that his wife, the one who walks off when he's talking about his job, has prevented him from being heard and has almost become an albatross around his neck. There were several times I felt like contributing to the conversation but he has a knack of talking over the top of you. So we just listened. At least mum felt loved for once.

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

therising — Mon, 13 May 2024 19:30:43 GMT

Hi David

My gosh, it sounds like we're talking about the same person to some degree. In your observations of your brother, I can see this in the person I speak of. Certain behaviours play out in a desperate need to maintain or regain control, partly due to not being able to cope with a loss of it, especially emotionally. Perhaps the behaviours are a coping mechanism, in order to avoid mental health issues. No excuses for their upsetting behaviours, just a better understanding of them. Thanks for your insight, much appreciated. You've provided me with a revelation. And, yes, I can relate to the talking over people aspect.

I'm glad your mum had a good mother's day. Good for the mind, body and soul. 🙂

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

David35 — Wed, 15 May 2024 07:14:14 GMT

When we listened, he calmed down. When we tried to interrupt with a different point of view, he talked over us. I think he's got so much going on in his head, that even he doesn't know what's in there. I read some where that to have a thought, we often need to express that thought verbally to someone else. But if the other person doesn't listen, in my brother's case, his wife, then he struggles to consolidate his thoughts and work through them. I've been lucky since dad died that my mum still listens to me (concerns, ideas, opinions, etc.). But after not really seeing him much for several years, his views are still the same or-all-nothing mentality. Last year when we spent time with his family, I noticed his wife constantly dismissing him, literally walking off because she's bored of listening to him, despite some of his insights from working in the police force. I get the impression that he feels under-valued at work, not heard by his wife and ignored by his kids. So essentially his own thoughts are being invalidated by everyone around him, which is why he does the same to us. I think it's why he has no capacity to empathise with others, because he doesn't know what it's like to comprehend his own feelings. In a sense, he's emotionally constipated!

Nevertheless, it's still like walking on egg-shells being in his company because this defence mechanism stifles conversation and is rather abrasive towards anyone who might offer a slightly different point of view.

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

therising — Wed, 15 May 2024 08:28:35 GMT

Hi David

You're such an incredibly thoughtful person, the way you consider different perspectives, the way you open your mind to possibility and reason and in a lot of the ways you care, especially when it comes to your mum.

I appreciate your perspective, the way you consider your brother's behaviour and the possible reasons behind it. You've given me a lot to think about regarding the person whose behaviour I struggle with in my own life. I've never really thought about how it all gradually came about, bit by bit. I really appreciate your insight. I think I'm becoming more closed off toward them and more defensive over time. It can be hard not to be this way, as you'd know. I think you learn, with this strategy, there's less chance of feeling hurt or upset at some point. There's that inner dialogue that can sometimes come about that can sound a little like 'You know if you let your guard down, when they're being all open and nice, that it's going to come back to bite you. You know they're going to turn again and it's going to hurt. Stop cycling through this'. I think it's gotta be about those boundaries. A little like 'Sure, come into my life but don't cross the line with me again. From now on, I'll quite clearly let you know you've crossed it'.

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

David35 — Wed, 15 May 2024 09:53:13 GMT

It's the trust that has been broken. Something mum still struggles to understand with me. Although mum and I are open to him reconnecting with him, we both have to be careful not to be hurt again. Because his moods can flip-flop, from being nasty to kind and listening. It's hard to know how much to share. I've shared things in the past with my brother and been bitten in the butt later on. The more people know about you, they more they can hurt you. So I've decided to keep some things close to my chest.

I'll give you an example. Several years ago mum let it slip that I'd saved some money whilst being on Centrelink. I know, how dare I not spend it on alcohol and other frivolous activities that don't benefit me into the future. So then came the jealousy, particularly from his wife and the ignorance. I had to "hide" this money in case Centrelink found out. Every bank is linked via tax file number, back to the ATO, then to Centrelink. Anyway, after 1/2 hour I gave up and left to get dinner. The next day I checked what the rules were. I could have up to $480k savings if I didn't own a home before my pension would be affected, that's $480,000. So the pair of them didn't know what they were talking about. My point is that I no longer share any financial info with them, not because they were clueless, but because of the profound jealousy that I was capable of living within my means. Even though they are family, I've made a conscious decision to never talk finances with my brother. Knowing what they are takes time though.

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

Croix — Wed, 15 May 2024 11:52:00 GMT

Dear David35~

You are quite right, you can't trust your brother or your SIL as it looks like anything that involves money will make them either jealous and put you down or try to find some way to get it for themselves.

It is a very sad thing to realise someone who should love and care for you in fact values money more.

Actually I rather admire the fact you and your mum were able to make some savings, a very wise move even if it does mean forgoing other things.

There was someone very close in my family who over the years I found would remember everything I said and later on twist it round to hurt me. -a toxic personality. There was no way I could confide anything wiht that person as they had broken trust umpteen times and there was nothing left to say.

I've found sometimes you simply have to let go of a person and treat them almost like a rather dangerous stranger. I hope your mum can see thngs as clearly as you do

Croix

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

therising — Wed, 15 May 2024 11:52:16 GMT

You have well and truly gifted me an enormous revelation and I am so deeply grateful to you David. It's about trust. While I may have been somewhat conscious of this in the past, you've suddenly led me to become fully conscious of it. You've also led me to consider a number of other relationships in my life that involve trust issues. This revelation has opened up a bit of a Pandora's box. It's a good thing though because it also includes the faith and trust we need to have in our self. 'Trust' is an interesting topic indeed, with it being a thread that runs through our life and relationships. Sometimes the thread is strong and sometimes not so strong.

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

David35 — Wed, 15 May 2024 12:06:01 GMT

Croix,

Despite only seeing my brother once or twice a year lately, we both decided that we wanted him to love us, not his inheritance. It would benefit us, because then we knew we were loved and also him, because I don't think financial solutions would fix his own personal problems anyway, despite him thinking otherwise. So hopefully this choice he made to see us, which wasn't an obligation, can help to heal old wounds, because it shows mum and I he cares about us.

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

David35 — Wed, 15 May 2024 12:20:29 GMT

I used to use this analogy with mum. The trust has been broken, which is like a rope bridge across this chasm. On each side is each of us; my brother on one side, mum and myself on the other. The bridge between us was the trust we once had. But over time with financial manipulations, neglect, etc. the bridge deteriorated to such an extent that mum cut off all financial help. That was the only language they seemed to talk... But over time he seems to have been throwing one of those ropes back over the chasm to help build it again. We haven't cut it and put a flame to it, because it has involved just simple genuine concern. We've just tied it down and waited for the next few to keep coming. I'm not throwing any more ropes across, we've both had them cut in the past. But the more he keeps rebuilding that bridge, the more we'll let him into our hearts again, the more we trust him. It's up to him to rebuild that trust (the bridge) not me. I'm not walking half way across only to have him burn it at the other end and me fall into the chasm. It's hard enough trying to get out the first time when he made fun of my mental breakdowns during mum's cancer treatment. But slowly over time, hopefully, he'll build a few steps until one day we'll be able to meet in the middle.

Another analogy I use is this concept of a ledger (two columns). Actions vs Words to judge the sincerity of someone. So one side of the ledger has a list of the person's nice things they say (they'll say they're going to help, give some advice, etc.). On the other side are actions. For example, inviting you out for a cofffee, offering to help, etc. Basically words are cheap, but actions speak louder than words. Some people will have the words column full, but no actions to back it up. My brother dropping in Monday showed that he did care, because he actually did something out of the blue, to show us he cared. Words on a card on the other hand to me are sometimes meaningless. To me, it's when the ledger doesn't balance, that you can't always trust people.

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

Croix — Wed, 15 May 2024 12:47:13 GMT

Dear David35~

I realy do like your analogies, particularly the one about the rope bridge. Not throwing a rope back but letting him build it himself is so exactly how it should be.

I can only hope for your sake, and that of your mum, that it is genuine and signifies a desire for closeness, rather than as a reaction to a quarrel with your SIL or something to do wiht money.

I realy would like to know how you get on - if you felt like saying

Croix

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

David35 — Mon, 08 Jul 2024 16:20:49 GMT

Well months on and nothing has changed. He rings once a month and pretends that everything is OK. But it's not. I've tried praying, I've tried to forgive. But how do you forgive someone when they have no remorse for how they've treated you. It's ripped our hearts out and messed with our heads. Even if mum changes her will, which she is contemplating, only some explanation as to why they both turned their backs on us when mum got cancer and I suffered several mental breakdowns will make things right.

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

therising — Mon, 08 Jul 2024 19:26:40 GMT

Hi David

I can hear the hurt and upset in your words, which is completely understandable. I think if he'd be honest with you about why he and his family have made the choices they've made, you may not necessarily relate but at least you'd have some relief in knowing.

With there being so many emotions behind forgiveness, I think this is what can make forgiveness so challenging. Sometimes, the more emotions the harder it can be to forgive because it can involve having to work through them all. And then there can be some form of resentment, for having to do all this hard work, when the other person doesn't appear to struggle with any work at all. So, add a sense of injustice to the list of emotions.

When it comes to forgiveness, I tend to struggle as well. I'm inclined to rely on the sage in me or whatever it is that dictates to me 'The only way to forgive is for you to move forward through giving that person some form of release. What form of release will you give them?'. Constructive disappointment is something I've found that has come to work well for me over time. While I could feel disappointment over and over and over again, for years in some cases, the release is marked by the final disappointment. Kind of like 'That was the last time I appoint you the role of he/she who will _____. I finally take this role away from you. It was never yours to begin with, I gave it to you (in the hope that you'd fill it)'. While there can some sense of relief in that final disappointment, there can also be a deep sense of sadness too, a sense of grief and a loss of hope to work through. It can be so hard to move through the sadness and come out the other side of it. With that 'loss of hope', it's not necessarily a bad thing. Where we choose to invest our hope can become more about practicality than anything else. With 'the final disappointment' factor, it becomes about 'Okay, I no longer appoint you any of these roles. I move forward by completely releasing you from them'. With this in mind, the questions become 'Who is willing or happy to fill them, these roles?' and 'Who is going to bring me so much hope to the point of me feeling it as inspiration?'. As long as we're left thinking 'But he/she should take responsibility' or 'He/she should care more, they're my child/partner/friend/co-worker/psychologist' etc etc, the disappointment continues through expectations that may never be met. Of course, it can be so much easier to speak of forgiveness than it can be to achieve and even master it.

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

David35 — Sun, 14 Jul 2024 10:43:46 GMT

That's very insightful, profound almost. It's one of the things I've been discussing with my pscyhologist. How it's not the act itself (not talking to us, not supporting us, not allowing mum and I to be a part of their kids' lives), but the expectation that they would act a certain way. That's not to say that out expectations are unrealistic, but as long as I keep hoping he'll change, I'll be continually disappointed when he never does. After dad died, which is coming up 8 years in a few days, coincidentally the same day mum is changing her will, I expected him to fill the void somewhat. I thought I could lean on him. But what happened is that when I went to sit down on him, he crumbled. All his words, cliches, catch-phrases just crumbled into nothing. His actions didn't equate to his words. He didn't just turn his back on us, but shut his family off from every giving us any joy again, via the love of his 3 beautiful children.
I've mistakenly looked up to him over the years. The problem with that is there was always a sense of seeking his approval. Not anymore. Because through dad's death and mum's cancer battle, he's been nothing but a disappointment. His answer is to everything is to simply buy something, which is probably why they're always in debt. But the things I want; knowing that if mum dies he'd be there for me, can't be bought. The loyalty that he admired in my father simply isn't there. He's a fraud and a knocker. It's hard to accept, especially for mum, who has been denied the role of being a grandmother the last 3 years. I never thought two people, him and his self-centred wife, could be so cruel as to emotionally blackmail us with the love of their family, simply because we didn't continue to finance their lifestyle. Because he wanted his inheritance now. But I was wrong. At the height of my nervous breakdown, he was manipulating me to use my power of attorney to put her in a nursing home and joking to have his mortgage paid off. I don't know how to forgive someone when they never repent. But I think the sooner I realise that I can't trust him, that he's a narcissist, just like his wife, the sooner I can have a free mind again.

Re: How do I learn to forgive my brother's betrayal during mum's cancer treatment

David35 — Sun, 14 Jul 2024 10:49:25 GMT

It all adds up. The guilt-tripping about his mortgage, the jokes about retiring early, the undermining of anything finance-related to mum. The constant digs about the house mum and I live in, which he thought we'd downsize to free up some cash for him. It's quite a lonely feeling when you realise one of your closest relatives (brother) doesn't really care about you at all, and just sees you as an obstacle to getting what he wants out of mum. Thanks.