topic Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation in Relationship and family issues

Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

DaveKay — Wed, 21 Feb 2024 05:27:50 GMT

HI community

I'm 47 with 3 kids (11, 8, 6) and a marriage (12 years) that's been on the rocks for a while.

My wife has asked for a seperatation, and I'm after some perspectives from anyone who has gone through something similar.

As background context - wife has been unhappy for quite sometime, and has previously asked to seperate. Her reasons are that I am too difficult to live with, and that I scare the kids when I yell at them. I get where is she coming from, and I've tried my hardest over the years and months to settle that down. A lot of that stems from me being the primary income earner (working long and hard hours) and then carrying a big household load as well (cooking, shopping etc). Wife does most of the running around, appointments etc. The house gets crazy chaotic most times, and it just happens that my dad-yelling is much more aggressive that her mum-yelling. That's just for background and context. I know I can be a real knob sometimes, so here we are...

She's asked me to move out of the house so she can stay with the kids. My primary resistance is that I cannot afford to fund a second residence without significant impact on the kids (ie remove from private schooling, reduction in costly extracurricular activities). My second resistance that the kids quality of life will suffer as a whole, though wife thinks they'll be happier with me not being around so much.

I said I don't plan to be kicked out of my own house, and she seems determined to leave with the kids. The frustrating this is that she believes there are rental options for $150 a week (ie cheap!). Lol & sigh.

I don't have feelings for her anymore, but I am determined to hold things together for the good of the family, and for sheer practical reasons. Her idea of good is not being around. Any statement I make about finance/cost is seen by her as financial blackmail.

I am really hurt and angry. I've busted my butt for the family, and carry so much of the income generation and household chores.

I'd love to hear from anyone who has been in a similar scenario

- how did you manage the cost of a secondary residence?

- how did the kids cope with separation?

- is there a good side to any of this?

Thanks, all!

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

white knight — Wed, 21 Feb 2024 06:21:43 GMT

Hi, welcome,

Lots to cover maybe not all able to do in one post.

I separated due to my 1st wife's abuse of me. Two girls 7 and 4yo then (1996). She stayed in the house, small ,mortgage, single mums pension. I bought a 10ft caravan and stayed in a caravan park and worked extra 12 hour shifts to fund my next project. So, bought block of land then settled with her- she gets the house I get the garage I'd built. Bought block of land, put garage on the land then built a kit home. Yes, I virtually had no savings.

I too had worked hard and long shift work hours as she was to be the homemaker which she failed at dismally. Sarcasm and silence was her tools of hurt. But lets put that aside, in your case she is not wanting the marriage, you need to accept that, sadly.

Your anger is understandable, because if we reverse the situation, why she not work and you be the homemaker on a pension and child support? Her sole reason for "taking" the kids eg your yelling, isnt justification at all.

I say this because yelling is borderline abuse. It is common and often acceptable in some families. It's often how you grew up. but some, and I can assume your wife, go the other way and resent the yelling they copped when they were young, hence her criticism of you yelling. I digress.

You are unlikely be able to do as I did in 1997, build your own home or even afford to. You'll pay 31% of your GROSS wage for 3 children and her pension wont be affected. Depending on her income from you will determine if she gets family allowance. In my case it was 27%, 2 kids and even though I worked 60 hours shift work a week, she earned more than me. Go figure the Govt's logic. When I finished building my home she wrote to child support demanding more money from me because "he has a brand new home, mine is 100 yo").

So expect some nastiness coming your way. As you havent broken any laws (yelling) you are entitled to visitations every second weekend and you can apply for 50/50 custodianship if living nearby and can prove you can look after them and work at the same time. Highly recommended you visit a family solicitor and sort the possibilities out mate, first visit usually free.

Some options for me couldnt be taken up. I had mental health issues I was then unaware of. But options like living in the garage and co-parenting, spare bedroom, for some its ok, others no and the yelling issue would remain contentious. With regard to her rental cost, when ever these statement arise ("$150 a week") suggest to her that "I will move out tomorrow when you find a two bedroom place for $150 a week". Then she can do the research and ... wait. When she realises its $450 a week+ bond+ electricity, gas etc and it takes about $5000+ furniture she might not mention $150 again.

Sadly when I lived in the caravan park many men were there permanently and their wives in the house with the kids and the boyfriends. In fact often the new boyfriend benefitted by the situation. That can work in reverse.

The justice situation does not exist healthily with divorces, property settlement (I think she's entitled to 70% of assets with 3 kids if she gets sole custody). Or you could refuse to move and that forces her to find a place and then she'll need the $5000 to afford to do so. Of course you need the furniture, beds etc so your kids can visit. So throwing that option at her with the alternative to sit down and talk it out how you both can move on separately might work.

Yes, it can be very unfair but it is only unfair if one party, the man or the woman isnt realistic nor working as a team to seek the most acceptable solution, if that doesnt happen you are in for a fight. Solicitor first stop.

We are here if you need to talk.

TonyWK

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

JaneyLou — Wed, 21 Feb 2024 11:51:15 GMT

Hi DaveKay

I have experienced exactly what you describe but as the wife. It’s a sad situation. Staying put will just prolong a bad situation. Find a solution that works for both of you. Make sure your kids understand what’s going on and that they’re not to blame for any of this. There is a happier life out there for both of you …separately, with new partners who will appreciate you for what you do and who you are. Sell your home, split your assets fairly and move on. There is a bright future. Kids are not silly…they know when adults are happy or not, never stay together for their sake.

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

DaveKay — Wed, 21 Feb 2024 22:34:41 GMT

Thanks, Tony. I really appreciate your candidness and openness. Ironically, "we" have a new (6mo) caravan and car because it's her "dream" to caravan with the kids. Yet I'm at fault for not wanting to spend 8 weeks on the road with her and kids over xmas. Anyway, prob a bit more to that is worth going into.

Funny, I told her to find me a $150 place. Her response was "why do I need to do everything for you". That exemplifies what I need to deal with. I get a statement of desire/want/direction then need to go figure it out. It doesn't help when I say to her that ideation without execution is hallucination.

I said I refuse to move out. She's threatened to move out with the kids. God knows where (her family is 2.5 hours away, and mine is across country). I'm really trying to avoid brutal ultimatums.

My worry is that she'll pull two levers in any settlement discussion. One that I work long hours (ie 9 to 5) and therefore can't look after the kids and the second being the kids are fearful of me because of the yelling (the yelling I accept is very problematic, but I keep a tight lid on it so it may be a few times a month).

I've spoken to a solicitor. Pretty much the same general advice you provided. I'll be jammed up either way.

The statistics for well being after separation / divorce are well known and truely sad. Nobody wins. My primary goal in life is to fund the kids uni and first properties. Her view is that because she grew up on a farm with the basics, there is no need to support them in the future. So frustrating.

My plan today is to outline separation of finances, and to carve out $50k of expenses that will be needed to fund a second residence.

I really appreciate your response. It's helping me prepare mentally for the road ahead.

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

DaveKay — Wed, 21 Feb 2024 22:36:24 GMT

Hi Janet - short, simple and very resonating. That's not a future I want to embrace, but it's becoming clear that's the path ahead. Thank you for sharing your situation, I appreciate it 🙂

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

Carus — Thu, 22 Feb 2024 02:23:11 GMT

Sorry to hear my friend....and yes you have some fires to walk through now....

HOWEVER, you shouldn't stay in a situation like this as it will only make you more and more depressed and unhealthy. That's not why you were born onto this earth!

Kids are resilient and they'll make it through. It is worse for them to grow up in a household with two unhappy, fighting parents....But as JaneyLou said above, it is imperative you explain to them (more than just once) what is happening and it is NO way their fault....coz kids live in an egocentric world and everything that happens around them IS their fault...

I've heard before that you shouldn't leave the house as the courts will look upon that as it was YOU that abandoned the family....even though it's her decision and will bring you some space and peace of mind.. Don't quote me on that one but perhaps run it past your lawyer....

And lastly, I know you can't see it or feel it right now, but once you get through this and the atomic dust settles, there is a much better, healthier and happier life waiting for you at the other end. Just need to get through the tunnel first.....*

Sending You Strength for the road ahead.

Regards

Carus*

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

white knight — Thu, 22 Feb 2024 21:47:53 GMT

Caruso is right, kids are resilient.

It's too idealistic to keep your plan of funding uni and 1st property. This is where you could be adding stress to yourself.

I would return to that solicitor to ask for means to ensure she can't move too far away from you.

TonyWK

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

white knight — Fri, 23 Feb 2024 00:07:48 GMT

I've been doing a lot of thinking on your situation Davekay.

It is common when a marriage fails that a parent will demonise or exaggerate the other parents parenting in any way they can to - distance them from the children with the ultimate aim of sole parenting, end up with sole custody with the other parent with visitation rights and so on. I've noticed with your account of her reactions and answers to your interactions with her that this "anti" you stance is along those lines.

Briefly- My 1st wife, mother of our kids, was narcissistic, used silence as a cruel weapon often when she had pushed me to my limits resulting in me yelling at her. After separation she'd tell others my yelling was the problem. It was only when I told those people why my yelling was a last resort due to her lack of carrying out her role in our marriage (homemaker) that they realised I was that frustrated. When a partner works 3 job one which is shift work and the other the homemaker, cooking a meal for him/her is their job, washing clothes and taking the kids to school all part of doing what the worker cant possibly do, but I had to such was the laziness.

However, you dont need to prove to anyone to justify your position. What you do need to do is two things-

stand up to her in a tactical manner
maintain your rights as an equal parent
dont allow her to dictate your future in any way eg leave the house.
safeguard your rights to your children eg she not move too far away
accept that she is not being realistic towards you as she has an ultimate plan
accept that whatever criticism she has of you is not real
maintain your confidence that your logic trumps any illogical replies.
Deal with untruths by a simple - "thats not right" or "I'm an equal parent"
accept in your mind that a father is indeed an equal parent

My ex said many things that hit hard-

"I'm the mother, the kids usually stay with the mother"
In response to me taking the kids to a parent and teacher night "I've sorted all that out, besides, its not in your visitations rights, see you on Friday night when you collect the kids"
She'd demonise my parenthood "you get angry too often" any my reply "you dont ever buy fruit for the kids... my house my rules

Someone that isnt demonising would acknowledge your attempts to reduce your yelling. Let's be clear yelling isnt good, but noisy or naughty children can press buttons and some parents have the calmness not to respond in that way and it is serious leading to anxiety, bullying behaviour when grown adults. Google-

Is it OK to yell at your kids? Yes, if done the right way

For every article on "yelling is ok" they'll be 2 when it isnt. So control to limit it is perhaps a good start. Go for a walk is good also even to the letterbox, clear your mind.

But it could be argued that her intention to deny your kids their full time father using yelling as her main reason is more hurtful to the children as resilient as they might be.

Google-

Is withholding a child domestic violence? Barton Lawyers

She has the right to separate, divorce, get a life without you. Everything else being equal is up for negotiation... everything.

In the meantime if you attend a therapist/counsellor specialising in family matters for your "yelling" tendencies, that would go a long way in terms of any possible future court session with a judge. It would also do you well in your own parenting even though I doubt that the frequency of your yelling is pivotal and could be over reacted by her.

TonyWK

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

DaveKay — Fri, 23 Feb 2024 05:33:40 GMT

Thanks, TonyWK and Carus

Many of your points resonate very well.

Accept that she is not being realistic towards you as she has an ultimate plan. Well said, and I think this is true. But I think her plan is delusional (ie that she & kids will be better/happier). Part of my resistance is my determination to avoid a statistically likely worse outcome for all. Her ideal plans are delusional, based on rose-coloured memories of her own childhood. We have fulfilled the majority of her "dreams" over the years - purchased a caravan for kids holidays, shift to part time to be with kids more etc. I've put my foot down on buying horses (I can't believe I am even typing that) etc. I cannot let my kids be pulled into a life fuelled by delusion. What's really frustrating about all this is the we have 1-2 fights a month (and they are reducing as I learn to better keep my emotions in check ahead of time) and work reasonably well the majority of the time. I cannot see any circumstance where a separated household is going to benefit her, or especially the kids.
Accept that whatever criticism she has of you is not real - this is the hardest to deal with. Her criticisms are mostly valid when taken outside of context. I do yell more than I'd like to (but the pressure/frustration that leads to that is predictable), and I do serve some pretty damaging insults when we argue (ie attack her parenting). Her view is that we are 99% incompatable, my view is we are 5% incompatible. It is really hard to have a rational discussion about it all, which just adds to point 1 above.
Maintain your confidence that your logic trumps any illogical replies - I do to a degree, but I believe I am humble enough to see and understand her perspective (whether I agree with it or not). But at the end of the day, my logic is not helping me achieve the outcome I want (ie stay together).

I'm heading interstate for a week on Sunday, which should give her some space. I've also asked her to start setting up her own financial independence (like get her own credit card and silo her expenses). But I've made clear I am not vacating this house under any circumstance. We've been sleeping in separate rooms for the past 10 years, as one or more kids have always found their way into the bed. That's another whole thing, possibly both a symptom and a cause, ha ha!!

Despite all your positive comments about a better life after separation, I still have a mind to doggedly hold this together and keep finding ways to remediate. I have a 24 hour memory that keeps resetting (she has a 99 year memory, unfortunately). I am not unhappy with my situation, just sad and frustrated. My plan is to have her do all the heavy lifting with separation to see just how committed she is to that course of action.

I'll keep you all posted!!

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

Robby60 — Sat, 24 Feb 2024 14:12:46 GMT

I can understand your desire to keep the family together in un-ideal circumstances, particularly considering the alternative.

I worry that you say "I've also asked her to start setting up her own financial independence".

Law professor and former law reform commissioner Augusto Zimmerman describes the mechanism by which mothers can unilaterally evict husbands from the family house and relegate them to excluded parent/financial slave in his submission to the 2019 Family Law inquiry. You can look this up if your ever feeling a bit too cheerful. Think she wouldn't stoop that low? So did every father that ever copped it.

I think an expression of reduced trust is risky but I understand it may be necessary.

It may be a good time to be philosophical about the nature of your relationship and being very clear about what you can realistically seek from it. It's helpful to understand transactional analysis, conflict triangles, covert aggression etc. You have to become the teflon man. If her empathy for you is gone then that is something to be accepted and not resented. Can you both be adult enough to maintain a business like relationship over the kids and otherwise live separate lives? Is that what you seek? Is that what she seeks? What's your relationship with your kids like?

Your safety lays in being useful to her in some way other than just financial because if she takes the gloves off she has your financial support with or without your blessing.

Too many unknowns to say much more than this.

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

white knight — Sun, 25 Feb 2024 01:44:20 GMT

I liked Robby's contribution.

DaveKay, I've read over your posts. I got the following questions and comments.

The caravan was obvious purchased to accommodate the family. For this reason it is invaluable for if and when if all ends with the marriage it can be used as your residence that will accommodate the children as well. You might need to have 2 caravan parks in mind as I think in some states you must move out for at least a week every 3 months to avoid "permanent living" there. Look ahead 12 years, child support stops, think about getting a house then.
"I've busted my butt for the family, and carry so much of the income generation and household chores. " This is where I have parallels. Shift work and 2 part time jobs so my ex could be a stay at home mum meant I was a zombie most of our marriage and needed care. Nevertheless the respect for that hard work never solidified. I made a home call from a GP to check her out. He asked what the issue was- "If you look at her wearing a dressing gown and its 3pm in the afternoon"? he ran tests and all was ok, no depression etc, "I think it could be laziness" he said. What I'm getting at is you have to cut your losses on things like hard work, be proud you applied yourself for your family, no one can say otherwise.
"Part of my resistance is my determination to avoid a statistically likely worse outcome for all. Her ideal plans are delusional, based on rose-coloured memories of her own childhood". At this stage, really one step from marriage dissolve, you really cant have her interests at heart, delusional or otherwise. As long as she would care for the kids welfare and location close enough for your access nothing at all should matter.
"My worry is that she'll pull two levers in any settlement discussion. One that I work long hours (ie 9 to 5) and therefore can't look after the kids and the second being the kids are fearful of me because of the yelling (the yelling I accept is very problematic, but I keep a tight lid on it so it may be a few times a month)." Worry only produces ulcers. Squash worry with facts or likelihood. Eg how would she know that you could rent a place and have a relative/friend/nanny that can look after the kids in the hours that you are away from home? Or that your boss can make arrangements to change your working hours... too many variables for her to counter your desires to co-parent. The yelling, although addressed previously that it isnt a good thing and should be treated i.e. anger management, she cant prove it is abusive enough to harm the children. Courts act with facts. eg if she produced a video that the judge agreed it was serious enough to possibly cause mental damage then thats more likely actionable.
There's a lot of here say , claims and counterclaims that get thrown out with the process.

She no longer wants to live with you and you've lost feelings. Her possessiveness to remove you full time to part time with the kids is a judgement that could be unfair and should be left to the court imo and not discussed any further with her due to her bias. During this time I'd suggest planning for moving out. That will stop prolonging the inevitable.

Financially the best outcome is to sit down with her, preferably with a solicitor/s and draft up a visitation plan agreeable to both parties. Property settlement can come later but secure the caravan. Resentment - I still have a little for my ex and we separated in 1996. But mate, I have a great wife now and my daughter 34yo is close to me. The other one she demonised me and I dont have contact.

Thoughts?

TonyWK

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

DaveKay — Tue, 27 Feb 2024 05:54:57 GMT

yowch - that submission is a real cheery read, and it resonates with may of the stories I have heard from my male peers. My plan is to try and turn this all around, even if it's just to stabilise things (but hopefully improve). I'm away travelling for the week, so will see what things look like when I get home..

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

white knight — Tue, 27 Feb 2024 11:02:44 GMT

Hi Carus

Re: "I've heard before that you shouldn't leave the house as the courts will look upon that as it was YOU that abandoned the family....even though it's her decision and will bring you some space and peace of mind.. "

That's not the case. 12 months separation is all that's required for divorce, there is no judgement by anyone as to why.

Thanks for your post, regardless

TonyWK

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

white knight — Tue, 27 Feb 2024 11:06:53 GMT

Sorry Fave, not meant to shock you. Other members here have commented on why it's better to make a new life, your friends also.

Initial stance of which you have of "hope" is understandable and we hope it works out. If it doesn't, a plan be can be shattering if it doesn't exist.

I hope you're OK

TonyWK

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

quirkywords — Tue, 27 Feb 2024 11:22:03 GMT

Dave Kaye and everyone on this thread. It is bath sad and interesting.
Im my situation I left family home and as a female I was at a disadvantage . Long story iwont go in to but I had no choice but to leave.

Dave I wish you all the best. Keep in touch here if you want to

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

Carus — Wed, 28 Feb 2024 03:09:19 GMT

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the clarification....As I said it was just something I'd heard....

It wasn't so much about the reason for divorce, I just heard the court doesn't look favorably on the one who abandoned the family home....perhaps when it comes to assests or children or something....

As QW said, it put her at a disadvantage....but didn't say why*

And yeh, I do hope Dave can turn things around, but it will take a lot of work and change from him....AND her....

Regards

Carus*

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

white knight — Wed, 28 Feb 2024 04:05:36 GMT

Yeh, thise situation has been a developing one in Australia, indeed there was a time when leaving the family home was frowned upon by a divorce court where your dirty laundry was amplified to the community. Thankfully those cross examinations are gone. There is a million reasons people leave and many are justified. I recall a neighbour after I left, ignored me at the shops when I said hello. I stopped him and asked him why "You left your wife and kids"... "never judge what you dont know what goes on behind closed doors". Her second husband had the same receiving end of narcissism as I did and he asked me what he could do about it "well mate I had no answer so I had to leave."

One week prior to leaving her I attempted suicide. Had I faced demonization by a judge or the community I likely wouldnt have survived having to remain being abused. Such abuse behind closed doors is impossible to describe and impossible to prove as words get twisted. Her remaining silent was abuse in itself, up to 6 weeks- not one word.

Back to Dave, it isnt an easy thing to suggest to a person struggling under the same roof as his distant wife (that wants him to leave) that he'd be mentally better off leaving. The stakes are high- loss of a considerable amount of property, his full time fatherhood, estrangement of a wife that has already moved on etc. The lucky ones in this situation remain friends and work together for the childrens future but that isnt always possible. My ex would never remain friends with an ex as she's proved 3 times now. The worse saying ever is- "it takes two"... no, it only takes one bad attitude to sever the friendship part forever. Some have zero ability to remain friends, its a war for these people.

I'm hoping Dave gets what he wants, her to turn her views around and rekindle the love that once was.

TonyWK

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

DaveKay — Thu, 29 Feb 2024 21:23:04 GMT

Hi all

I've gone over your responses again today.

I'm driving back to QLD from SA today after my week away. The trip was to get some space for all of us. Am both nervous and excited about going home.

I really appreciate your lengthy responses, as much as they hurt to read. Moving out for me is not possible. Wife did suggest I stay in the caravan (in the bush block behind our property with the chickens). The reason why this is her caravan is that I find them cramped (I'm 6'3). It's her van, she can stay in it if she really wants to. My family is all interstate, friends all have their own family (and relationship challenges).

I am also currently between jobs. I am a contractor project manager, and typically have a busy workload (a big part of my relationship issues). This has provided significant financial stability and allowed wife to reduce hours to focus on kids etc. New contracts will start soon, but for now I'm 'enjoying' a break. Just another thing to make new rentals tricky.

So, I'll see what's happening at home when I get there in a few days. I am going to keep working on this, I;m not ready to let go. But I dare say events will unfold in their own way.

I'll keep you all updated.

Thanks again!!

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

white knight — Fri, 01 Mar 2024 10:42:29 GMT

Hi Dave

I wasn't going to reply but two things now prompted me

1. If living in the caravan is suggested by her to you and that it is on the property eg good continuous contact with the kids, there is no reason at all as I see it, that she should not be treated the same eg move into it herself.

2. We've covered the yelling topic well, and imo this is or could be a "clutching at straws" topic to justify an end.

To my knowledge "abuse" (to the kids) claimed by one parent cannot hold any ground without lots of documented events, with evidence, by professional individuals eg child protection services. This claim of her is her perception without proof. There is no way her perception could have any affect on your future with your kids. It is like, you claiming she isn't worthy of her full time motherhood due to her not buying fruit or feeding them party pies twice a week. Under questioning she could claim fruit goes rotten too easily and she could suggest pies twice a week isn't unhealthy and ask for expert proof it is.

All children have to reduce each parents upbringing techniques in most cases they adapt. Besides you've identified it is excessive and making amends.

Google "beyondblue wit, the only answer to torment"

Short answers reach home mire effectively eg "tell me why I should live in the van when you can"?

TonyWK

Re: Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

DaveKay — Mon, 25 Mar 2024 10:35:56 GMT

Hi all - thought I’d post an update.

So the good news is that hell is starting to thaw.

It’s taken a bit though. She told me she had “walk away wife” Syndrome. Fair enough, it explains a lot. It also explains the negativity bias that was driving this relationship into a downward spiral.

I’ve decided to see a psychologist (thanks, Medicare). The key thing im getting from that is learning not to get drawn into every single shitty argument. The other good thing is that is something I can involve the kids in (let’s all help daddy not to lose his shit all the time 🙂

So, I think I’ve been able to right the ship, for now.

thanks to everyone who provided their perspectives on this. It really did help me get through those few weeks!