topic Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i in Relationship and family issues

how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

David35 — Sun, 15 Oct 2023 13:54:20 GMT

Since mum got cancer a few years ago, my bro, his wife and family have virtually cut us off. We have the occasional Easter and Xmas but nothing like it used to be. There is a lot of hurt caused by their lack of support, something we both find hard to ignore. So he does ring now and then but the care factor has almost reached zero. Mum regularly balls her eyes out with a sense of loss and disgust by his lack of compassion and I'm the son/carer who has to deal with it. Mum is free of cancer now, but given that Mum has 3 grandkids who she rarely sees, how are we to do deal with this? The Christian way is to forgive, but the hurt with some of the things that were said and the icy coldness on their behalf is something I've never experienced. It's also coincided with mum cutting back on her generosity, because what's the point? We feel discarded all because mum got cancer. It's got so bad mum is considering changing her will, the complete lack of concern for her and myself is so bad. His wife hasn't asked once how she was coping in the 2 years she had cancer treatment. I know it happens in families but I just didn't think this level of coldness would occur in ours.

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

white knight — Tue, 17 Oct 2023 02:59:58 GMT

Hi, welcome

I'll do my best to provide an opinion based just on this one post bearing in mind we only get one side of the story.

You mentioned "His wife hasn't asked once how she was coping in the 2 years she had cancer treatment. " I see your point but she is an inlaw is that correct? If so it is your brother that has the responsibility to contact your mother to give support. Any close attention one gets off a in-law is a bonus, that's my view of things unless the in-law has a special friendship going. To blame an in-law is to widen the situation more and that isnt ideal.

I think there is a good possibility there is more to this and this - 'but the hurt with some of the things that were said and the icy coldness on their behalf is something I've never experienced". What was said, was it an argument? It seems almost clear that it isnt the diagnosis but whatever was said in that exchange because she is free from Cancer now that says it isnt the illness or they would gravitate back towards your mother.

The best thing to do in this case is to talk to him and her together. If they declare that his mother getting Cancer was the catalyst to their lack of support, then you can put it to them their meanness, but I doubt it very much. However if it is for other reasons then it should be sorted out but people do have rights and if they choose to exercise them there is little you can do.

So, talk, ask them straight if there is a problem. If it is about your mother then hand over the phone, she can deal with it. ... be tactful and nice.

TonyWK

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

David35 — Tue, 17 Oct 2023 04:14:21 GMT

Mum and her daughter-in-law used to talk a lot. She used to confide in mum about problems with her own mum. That's how close they were. But when they realised they couldn't access mum's super fund after dad died, they slowly cut themselves off from us. It was basically an ultimatum. We either pay up for all sorts of expenses they had (house maintenance, school uniforms, he even hinted at mum paying off their mortgage) or we got cut out of their family. Which they have subsequently done.

As for mum's cancer, my brother said he has his own family to worry about and didn't want to know about it. He didn't even believe it existed, it was all in her head. We've tried talking to them. They deny everything. After 18 months my sister-in-law says "What can we do" in front of the kids. I felt like saying "Pick up the bloody phone". They are 2 of the most selfish people I have ever come across.

I accept that people have their rights. But to emotionally cut us off from the love of their kids, all because mum got cancer and we wouldn't financially support them anymore is the cruelest thing imaginable. I'm sorry, but you are way off mark.It's okay for them to distance themselves, except when they want money. They are simply waiting for mum to die, to get their inheritance. There is so much more to go into, but I'm actually sorry I wrote this post now, because you have just upset me more.

Thanks for your reply.

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

David35 — Tue, 17 Oct 2023 04:17:13 GMT

And for your info, she is to blame. For all of this. She is the one who demanded money from my mum, via my brother. She is just like her mum. What she wants she gets. And when she doesn't get it, she throws a temper tantrum by never responding to phone calls, text messages, blaming us for mistakes made with finances, etc. She is the most two-faced person I have met. Unfortunately, she has taken my brother and his kids with her. Please don't reply to me again. Because I am not widening the situation. I can see through people's manipulative personalities and put simply, we have just become an inconvenience to them. They like the money, just not us. And it hurts.

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

white knight — Tue, 17 Oct 2023 07:33:37 GMT

Hi,

I'm sorry you feel that way. I hope you are ok

Might I just point out that you only mentioned your sister in law once at the end of your post

"His wife hasn't asked once how she was coping in the 2 years she had cancer treatment."

With such lack of knowledge one simply defaults to the common method of practice of trying to help resolve the problems. Now, you've added several bits of information that wasnt in your first post. That-

your mother and sister in law was close
they tried to access your mothers super fund
your brother didnt believe his mother had Cancer
you (and/or mother) were financially supporting them in some ways
you believe your sister in law is to blame for all of it
your sister in law demanded money from your mother
she has temper tantrums
doesnt respond to call and texts (but you said he rings now and then?)
blames you for financial mistakes
sister in law is manipulative
your brother "had his own family to worry about" - did he have problems you are unaware of?

None of that was in your first post and all of those are relevant even very important.

Quoting you: "His wife hasn't asked once how she was coping in the 2 years she had cancer treatment." That is all the detail I had to go on apart from the fact she and your brother cut you off. However you said they attend easter and xmas so it isnt a full divide.

This forum allow for 2500 characters about 3 times the length of post that you submitted. Again I'm sorry you are hurt and I just ask that you consider an outsider like myself how difficult it is to respond to you with the information at hand.

I hope it works out for you. All the best in a difficult situation.

TonyWK

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

David35 — Wed, 18 Oct 2023 12:21:53 GMT

Fair points. The betrayal by their whole family is still pretty raw for mum and I. I think we're suffering post betrayal syndrome...Apologies for the rant. I'm still learning to process the whole thing which is why I still struggle to put into words exactly what has happened. We've both been broken by their lack of compassion in such a tough time.

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

white knight — Thu, 19 Oct 2023 07:13:18 GMT

Hi David,

I have such admiration for you to respond here now. I discussed this topic with my supervisor and agreed that relationships need more patience than I displayed, so please dont take fault fully. I'm 67yo and I pride myself that I'm not arrogant nor believe I know it all.

I agree totally that your loss and pain is immense and your mums pain also. Family split can be really hard. I've split with 4 members of my family (plus 3 long term partners) and the grief has been terrible.

So, with my experience I've found that we can have a few enemies in the wings within our own assumptions. Whenever we realise we assume things, I make it my policy to seek clarification by direct communication. It isnt easy to do but has to be done or we'll stew over issues that might not be issues at all. Direct communication might not end well but you'll know where you stand hance less grief. I have a good friends from school (long long time) and he went missing when I needed him, I kept a grudge for 2 years, then his sister I bumped into and she told me he'd been battling colon cancer. I asked how long for? and she indicated a time prior to him drifting away. In fact only his blood relatives knew. I felt really bad. I have a law enforcement working history so assumptions are drilled out of us but I assumed he held a grudge.

Another family saver can be time- let thing go for 3-4 months and give your brother a ring. If you sense things are abrasive then just calmly ask "over the last year or so things between us hasnt been ideal, I hope we can put it all behind us for mums sake." something like that.

Finally, in-laws. The big issue here is in-laws dont have our blood, that means they think differently and that can include so many different behaviours and judgements. And yes they can influence their partners. It doesnt make them wrong, it means they are different. For every fault they have we have one also but not the same fault. It is also therefore easier for an in-law to place a gap between herself and her in-laws for the same reason. She might have felt disappointed by her in-laws. But for what reason? She might have asked her husband to seek out some financial help from his family, but is it gold digging or realistic financial struggling? These are the questions you need answers to and it not matter who's at fault, what matters is meeting half way so your brothers family visits more often.

It seems to me that you David has been forced into a mediation situation, the guy in the middle and the guy that watches his mum grieve for her grandkids and son. That alone is a difficult situation to bare. any wonder you get emotional or defensive when you feel you have been questioned. That is actually normal.

So, do you have any questions as to your situation, how to approach them, what to say etc?

I'm really glad you replied and also sorry I could have been more subtle.

TonyWK

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

David35 — Sat, 21 Oct 2023 01:02:18 GMT

I watched a video on Post Betrayal Syndrome and I think both mum and I have been suffering it. Hence my over-reaction. My cup is full of hurt and anger and loss. That's why when you bumped me, that's what spilled out.

We've both searched our souls for some understanding and even asked my brother. His wife won't speak to us, except when she's on display for the kids to admire her well-meaning platitudes. We get a sense that my brother is burnt out with his job (police force) hence the lack of compassion. But they only see financial struggles as the real struggles in this world. They have no understanding of the struggles mum has faced with her cancer, the fact her husband (my dad) isn't here to support her, uncertainty of her health, mental health struggles, the fact she has become somewhat socially isolated.

I think our values have split. Theirs are houses, cars, mortgages, finances. Ours are mental health, simply trying to get through each day without bursting into tears for relationships and support we once had. It's been obvious over the years that since dad died, the only value mum provides them is a financial benefit. The human element has long gone. And for all we have both done for them over the years, it's been hard to accept that in our hour of need, they simply turned their backs on us. My brother sat there on dad's death bed and reassured him that he would look after mum, yet has done nothing except a few phone calls. We will be lucky if he drops in, by himself, over Christmas. His wife has a history of sulking. And when she places demands on my brother, and hence my mum to provide temporary financial solutions to their permanent spending spree problems, it causes stress. Mum has just about cut off all finances to them. Her view is that if they can't appreciate us as people, rather than some ATM, I don't want to know them. I feel the same way. The values my brother once had have been hijacked by a materialistic family of in-laws and it's just sad.

Thanks for responding. Emotions are sometimes hard to articulate.

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

indigo22 — Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:22:12 GMT

Hi David,

You have had a really difficult year already and I am sorry that it now seems that you are losing another member of your family in this way.

I know how hard it is to be the sole carer as you know, I think I have also mentioned the lack of support from my sister. It was more than lack of support, more like "what else can I do to sabotage things". Your sister in law sounds very much like my sister in that she has a narcissistic personality and a vengeful streak.

My sister poisoned the minds of her children against me to the point I not only had to deal with my sisters behaviour, but also her children's accusations and downright rudeness. I am also highly sensitive and I could feel the toxic energy from all of them just as you can feel.

My sister said and did things also over the years that I would not dream of saying or doing to someone I cared about. I distinctly remember her saying to my mother, "take me out of your will, I don't want anything to do with the family", yet she will never admit to saying it.

She didn't go to our brothers funeral or our mothers funeral. What she did do was put her lawyers on to me within weeks of mums funeral, demanding to see the will, demanding to see the bank accounts, accusing me of mishandling my power of attorney etc. etc. etc. That went on for 4 years and ended up being settled through mediation. From what you have said, it would not come as a surprise to me if you end up having a similar experience some day.

I made the decision to part ways with her and her children because I could see the futility in trying to have any meaningful relationship with any of them, having them in my life only causes me more harm than good.

It is a really difficult reality to face but you need to ask yourself "what are the positives and what are the negatives" to you personally by having them be part of your life and make your decision based on the answer to that question. Their children will be adults one day and may seek you out when they are ready.

I don't know if any of this has helped at all, but at least you know I understand your predicament.

Take care David,

indigo

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

David35 — Mon, 23 Oct 2023 15:42:39 GMT

Thanks. Your sister sounds like a real piece of work. Bit like my sister-in-law. We've taken years to identify that we think the financial demands, the lack of concern for us, the coldness and shutting us off from the love of the kids has come from her. Not so much my brother. Since her mum's death several months ago, my brother has become more "human" although he only rings about a week before we're due to send money through for the kids' presents... My mum has asked my brother (her eldest son) what has she done wrong? Has mum upset her? His response was "You'll have to ask her." But you can't. She won't respond to phone calls. After 18 months of ignoring mum's cancer, she comes out with "What can we do?" on mother's day. I've never witnessed someone so genuinely deceitful who tricks you into believing what she says.

As for the gold digging, we both believe most of the financial demands have come from her, not my brother. But of course my brother is too weak to stand up to her. As it is, we have virtually cut off all financial support to them, apart from gifts, because they no longer treat us as people, rather some commodity.

This is the 2nd year in a row we've decided not to spend Christmas with them, because of the underlying animosity towards us. Not to our faces, but in more subtle ways. We used to get sent pics of the kids, updates on them. That's all stopped. They have essentially blackmailed us with the love of their kids. We either helped pay off their mortgage, or we're no longer any use to them. It's sad. Unfortunately they're bringing the kids up the same way, as users.

I just feel for mum. She has no husband anymore. Her eldest son is almost estranged. I'm struggling and the one joy she had was catching up with them and seeing her grandkids. And now they have taken that away from her also. Her kind nature and generosity have simply been taken for granted. I'm not sure about their marriage, but I'm entirely convinced that she is waiting for her "pay day" when mum falls of the perch. Cynical I know, but my brother's attitude is not far behind either. And yes, I believe they are both narcisists.

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

white knight — Tue, 24 Oct 2023 04:27:59 GMT

Hi David and Indigo

The theories on this abhorrent behaviour is bot interesting and common. To seek out these reasons is for me anyway, a cleansing experience even a feeling of vindication.

I too have had my sister act in this way last xmas when she used her adult daughters against me in a manner that resulted in me losing all 3 from my life. All 3 rang me following a debate my sister had with my daughter. I stayed out of it but that doesnt help with they ring you demanding I take their side. Result? I lose 3 of my relatives.

Now, I'm experience din this stuff regardless of being the victim. That means you can know the theory but that doesn't help to avoid becoming the victim. So lets see the theory-

Silence. David, your SIL wont answer her phone. It 1/ hurts that you cant resolve issues with her. Her knowing that with her silence is a form of narcissism. Google- narcissism silence. Silence if someone needs to use it to distance themselves or cant defend themselves is a different matter. Silence to harm knowing that is will hurt a person is narcissistic
Emotional blackmail. My mother was an master but even expert tyrants dont win in the long run. Using children by not sending pics is a classic method to again hurt you and your mother.
"You'll have to ask her". I feel a little for your brother David because of the dynamics of his marriage. He knows that to pressure his wife is dealing with fire. He possibly is balancing it all enough to remain a family himself. Just my guess.
Poisoning the minds of their children. Classic narcissistic triangulation. Many videos on this on YouTube. Narcissists will gather people like ammunition. Eg my sister knew that to reap in her daughters to agree with her that she would gamble I will buckle if I knew I'd lose all 3. What they didnt know was that 1. it was not my argument 2. I dont agree with the triangulation technique ganging up on me and my daughter. If I did she'd have 4 against her including her father!! 3. That if you have a belief you should stick to it.
Number 3 is interesting. We all have principles, so should we ignore them? No. Should we support tyrants? No. Then for me the answer if hurtful but clear- accept that I've lost them.

David- this means if you accept that you personally have lost your brothers heart it would be easier than tormenting yourself with all the "why's" as to his and his wife's behaviour. Make the best you can do. Continue the support of her as best you can.

Can talk more if needed.

TonyWK

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

David35 — Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:41:43 GMT

I'm sorry to hear you have been through this also. Kids are very impressionable and to warp their thinking in this way is incredibly manipulative.

Thanks that's very insightful. I got called "creepy" both by nephew and his dad (my bro) for looking up my nephew's facebook page because I hadn't seen him in about 18 months and just wondered what he looked like or what he'd been up to. The lack of respect and gratitude for things we had done to support them is astounding. That's why mum cut off helping them out. In retaliation, they cut off catching up with us (we used to have takeaway nights years ago, or go out to lunch - all at mum's expense mind you...)

With regards to my bro, I think he's stuck in the middle of doing what's right and doing what is necessary to please her. Unfortunately, that means his loyalties lie with his wife and that means siding with her ostracising us. We've let the door open for him to walk through, but he never does apart from a few phone calls here and there. I just never thought this thing would occur in my family.

She used to always send pics of the kids' milestones. That has all stopped since mum got cancer. She used to talk to mum and I over the phone. Same thing. It's the stone cold silence that hurts. Her mum passed away recently so we sent a card and a text message. No response. We asked my brother if she got the card "Oh it was all pretty busy". They have an answer for everything.

The ironic thing is that we both could have been a big support for her, given that I'd lost a parent 7 years earlier and mum has so much compassion. But they and their kids have shown that they simply don't enjoy our company any longer. Last mother's day the girls huddled in a corner like we were strangers. We've concluded like you have, that it's all her doing. She simply doesn't want anything to do with us anymore and that is hard to accept. We have done nothing but help them and this is the thanks we get. It's been tough on both of us. Thanks for your understanding.

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

indigo22 — Tue, 24 Oct 2023 10:06:57 GMT

Hi David and Tony,

David, you reminded me of something when you mentioned Christmas. There had been so much going on with the "family" for such a long time, back stabbing, accusations etc., that one year I just decided that I would refuse to play "happy families" with an unhappy family at Christmas ever again. I would no longer participate in their hypocritical behaviour and said to my parents that I would see them on Boxing Day instead.

It had been like that for long enough, so I would go out to a restaurant that didn't recognise Christmas (Turkish or Lebanese usually) with a friend and have a lovely meal and relax instead of being around all the pretense and working myself into a state about it. That may sound selfish to some, but for me, it was a case of emotional necessity for my sanity. I have a very strong sense of ethics and I won't break those to appease someone else.

I find it very sad that there are people in this world that will use their children as a shield for their own failings, but unfortunately those are the type of people we have all had to deal with - until the day comes when we decide it's enough.

Tony, I am not sure what your sister was thinking (or her daughters for that matter), she can't know you very well if she thought you would turn on your own daughter. Narcissists always think they have the upper hand, but that's because they assume that everyone else thinks the way they do. Thank goodness they are wrong about that.

Take care both,

indigo

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

David35 — Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:47:25 GMT

Indigo,

Years ago, mum dad and I did the same thing. We spent Christmas together rather than with them,partly because it was my birthday, partly because we were sick of my sister-in-laws family whose company we have never enjoyed because they are downright snobs. They would muck us around with arrangements leaving it until the last few weeks to let us know. So we organised our own lunch. .Anyway, a few days after Xmas when we caught up with them at their place, she barely had any food for us, wouldn't talk to us, look as in the eyes. Nothing. They both took insult to the fact that we wanted to just do our own thing. That's how childish they both behaved.

So about 10 years later, mum and I are doing the same thing this year. Mum and I both decided that rather than mix with a bunch of hypocrites who pretend to care about us for a few hours, but couldn't care less for the next 12 months, why not get out of that toxic environment. The downside is we don't get to see the kids, but they treat us like strangers anyway. The upside is we don't have to get all stressed about trying to please my brother and his wife who are very pretentious when it comes to social arrangements. I'm just tired of the pretense that we're all okay, when we're not. Bear in mind, in the 20 years or so they've been married, not once have they ever spent time at our house with our family. It's her way or the highway.

The classic was last mother's day when the kids were standing around and she says "What can we do?" I Said "Just care".. Dead silence. For some people, I don't think they know how to, unless there's something in it for them.

On a good note, my brother rang today and said that he did care about us. I think like Tony says, he's stuck in the middle of caring, but not being disloyal to his wife. Of course, this brought mum undone. She blames herself for this rift in the family by getting cancer. The self-loathing and decline in her self worth has been hard to watch. Especially when it has been caused by your own family members. I've always said we'll leave the door open for him and his kids but I'm not sacrificing my principles, like you said, to appease someone else. Their behaviour is their responsibility, not mine. I just hope for mum's sake she gets to see the kids at some stage.

The other problem is that I just am very wary of them now. My trust has reached zero and as much as I try to forgive them for the hurt they have caused, it's hard to forget it.

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

David35 — Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:51:54 GMT

I needed to amend that. They haven't spent Christmas at our place in the 20 years we've known his wife.

Re: how to deal with a brother and his family who don't want to know mum and i

indigo22 — Thu, 23 Nov 2023 07:14:44 GMT

Hi David,

Just checking in, how you are feeling about all this now, are you and your Mum dealing ok?

indigo