topic Re: Where do I go from here? in Relationship and family issues

Where do I go from here?

sentinel23 — Thu, 23 Feb 2023 05:39:39 GMT

We've been married for 20 years. Over the last year, things have deteriorated to the point where both of us have said we were leaving the relationship on several occasions. In my opinion, this was because of poor communication on my wife's part. Rather than talk an issue through, she would rather avoid any conflict and just let it fester.
Anyway, a couple of weeks ago things escalated again and I said I was going to leave. Once again, pulled myself back from the brink and suggested we go to counselling (again). We've both had 1 individual session each, and then a joint session. I have to say I walked out of the last session feeling that there was no hope.
What really concerns me is the way that the counsellor handled the session. Basically all blame was laid at my feet. Whilst some issues that were raised were right, some weren't, and I was a bit surprised at how quick the counsellor came to their conclusions. Afterall, we're trying to distill 20 years of marriage and all the nuances that involves into 2 one hour sessions. I know I definitely didn't touch on all the issues I needed to raise. Also, I really felt on the back foot for the most of the session, to the point where for the last 30 mins I basically just shut down and let everyone else do the talking. Quite often I would start to say something and would immediately be cut off. Other times I would make a statement which would be micro analysed and I would be left with the feeling that the counsellor thought I wasn't being truthful. Overall, I was left devastated and feeling worthless. My expectation of counselling was that we both might end a session a little bit closer to resolution but I have never felt further away. I really need some advice on where to go from here.
1. Find a new counsellor who makes us both feel comfortable.
2. Stay with the current counsellor. Even though I don't like their style, I was told that I would need to commit to 6 sessions so I should give it a chance. Also, if this is to be successful I think both of us will need to face some hard truths about ourselves, and I don't really want to run away from that.
3. Leave. That evening after the counsellor I wanted to discuss some of the issues that were raised. My wife didn't want to do this. I don't know if I can be married to someone where communicating our concerns is so hard. If the only time we can talk about our problems is through a counsellor then I'm out.

Re: Where do I go from here?

Summer Rose — Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:51:52 GMT

Hi Sentinel23

I’m really sorry that you’re struggling in your marriage and not comfortable with your current marriage counsellor. It’s a tough spot to be in.

I’ve been married over 30 years and know what you mean about the challenge of trying to unpack decades of marriage. Every issue seems to be wrapped in layers and layers of complexity, past hurt, assumptions and expectations based on past experience.

My view is that I wouldn’t go back to your current counsellor. You both need to feel safe, comfortable and heard in the space or it’s not going to work.

It’s just my opinion but, if you still love your wife, I’d give another counsellor a shot.

I wouldn’t walk away from 20 years of marriage because communication is challenging, if that’s the only issue. It’s my thinking that there is likely a compromise to be reached, that respects both of your legitimate yet competing needs.

I’m suggesting an agreement to hold discussions at a mutually agreeable time and place and introducing a time limit and/or subject limit on the discussion. So ,for example, you may want to discuss the problem for half an hour, brainstorm solutions the next time for half an hour and work out what you’re going to do the next time you talk.
This is an approach that my husband and I use because I often want to talk and he doesn’t. And, if he feels it’s all too much and I keep pushing, we end up arguing and he’ll just walk away from the issue.

But it’s better to talk to him when he’s not tired and comfortable, even if I have to wait and stew a bit, than to let things fester. And limits are a good “out” because it provides a break and gives us both time to think about things before we might get frustrated or say things we might regret. It’s amazing how one’s thoughts can change and one’s heart can soften after a good night’s sleep.
I know this approach won’t be for everyone but it does work for us. What do you think?

Kind thoughts to you

Re: Where do I go from here?

sentinel23 — Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:22:03 GMT

Thanks Summer Rose. I'll think about what you've said and come back with a more detailed response.

All I want to say right now is thankyou for acknowledging and validating my concerns. It's been such a long time since I've felt this and it means more to me than you'll ever know.

Re: Where do I go from here?

Summer Rose — Thu, 23 Feb 2023 19:14:17 GMT

Hi Sentinel23

I’m glad my words helped you. Please don’t feel any pressure to respond or say more than you’re comfortable sharing. That’s not how this community works. Myself and others are here to support you at your pace, in a way that meets your needs, in a non-judgmental kind and caring way.
You take good care.

Kind thoughts to you

Re: Where do I go from here?

sentinel23 — Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:51:00 GMT

No pressure, it feels good to get things off my chest. I really like the suggestions you've made, particularly setting a time limit and only sticking to one topic. I've briefly mentioned them to my wife this morning and hopefully we'll give it a try tonight.

Can I also ask everyone - what should my expectations be in how counselling works? To my mind, if a problem is raised it needs to acknowledged, discussed, then maybe some kind of compromise or strategy agreed on, which may or may not involve one or both people changing their approach to things. After our last session I was really confused. It seemed to me every time I tried to offer a solution to a particular problem I was shut down as this was seen to be trying to change the other person. After giving up on that angle I started asking "what do I need to do" but this was also cutoff. Later my wife brought up an issue that triggers her, she acknowledges that it's mainly her problem, I'm also aware of it and avoid it as much as I can. I was immediately told to change what I was doing, which was the opposite of what I'd previously been told. When I pointed out that I generally have but sometimes it's just part of running a household which 2 people share, married or not, I don't believe I really got a response. Sorry if this is vague, but in the big scheme it's only a trivial problem. I just saw it as a good opportunity to discuss a strategy so we could both be happy but this didn't happen.

To me the whole session felt a bit tense and combative. And I really can't see the direction the counsellor is taking us and how it helps our situation.

Re: Where do I go from here?

Doolhof — Thu, 23 Feb 2023 23:30:01 GMT

Hi sentinel23,

Summer Rose has offered some very helpful suggestions. From my experience in a long marriage, communication, understanding, and validating the other person's needs can be tricky at times.

Congratulations on deciding to seek counselling to help. I am not sure if Relationships Australia might be able to offer you some advice. I'm sorry to read the session with the current counsellor was not very productive or supportive of you both by the sounds of it.

I had one session of couple's counselling with my husband. He used the whole session to state everything I did wrong, the male counsellor supported him stating things "like women just don't understand men!" The counsellor did make a couple of suggestions my husband could use to assist with some issues. My husband agreed they were a good idea...but never took them on board.

Wish I had some answers for you! Just want to acknowledge that relationships are quite a journey at times and I am sorry you are struggling with your marriage.

Re: Where do I go from here?

sentinel23 — Fri, 24 Feb 2023 00:57:21 GMT

Thanks Doolhof, I'll check out Relationships Australia. I'm also sorry to hear that counselling didn't work out for you and your husband, it sounds like your experience was similar to mine.

I have to admit both I and my wife can get carried away in the heat of the moment and start blaming each other. Trying to read up on more effective ways to have discussions as well as some self reflection. Hopefully I can avoid stepping on those land mines in the future.

Re: Where do I go from here?

Summer Rose — Sat, 25 Feb 2023 04:11:00 GMT

Hi Sentenil23

Your understanding of how marriage counselling should work makes sense to me. Your disappointment and unease about how the first couple session went also makes sense to me.
From what you’ve posted, it seems the counsellor wasn’t very objective or communicative enough or fair. That’s why I suggested you try another.

How’d your latest discussion go with your wife? Any better?

Kind thoughts to you

Re: Where do I go from here?

sentinel23 — Sun, 26 Feb 2023 07:58:12 GMT

Hey Summer Rose, thanks for checking in, it really means a lot. Tried your excellent suggestions, set a time limit, topic limit etc then proceeded to break all the rules we set 🙂 Haven't given up on this because I really think it's a good idea, just think the both of us need a bit more discipline to stick to the script. Overall though,I feel like I'm on the back foot because the counsellor has validated all of my wife's concerns and none of mine.

Kind of feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place now because if we change counsellors it will always be like I ran away from the hard questions, so I hope you don't mind if ask your opinion about a few specific things that occurred.

One question that was asked of me during the session 2 or 3 times was "what did I do to emotionally support my wife?" when we were first married. Each time this was asked I gave a totally weak, non existent answer! So the sweeping judgment was made that I had "emotionally abandoned" my wife. Which might have been a fair verdict considering the answers I gave. When I got home later I reflected on everything and realised I was being asked to recall things that were said and done 20+ years ago in a really short time frame. So I sat down over a few hours and thought things through, had a list of about 15 things that I could remember about those early days that I actually did to support my wife. The other thing I did was to write down all the years from 2000 to 2023 on a piece of paper, look through old photos and just try to remember the significant things that happened in our life. I realised, hey we've actually had a lot of sh*t happen in our lives (outside our immediate family). 2 things occurred to me. Dad had terminal cancer during that time, so that would have been a major distraction to our relationship. Maybe the counsellor should have explored other factors external to our relationship. Also, the judgement was that I had neglected my wife and kids. Looking at the timeline I came up with this was right at certain times, but there were definitely things happening that I needed to deal with (hated every minute of it) that got in the way of family.

Re: Where do I go from here?

sentinel23 — Sun, 26 Feb 2023 08:00:10 GMT

I guess my major disappointment with the counsellor is that they are a professional, they deal with the things I've pointed out all the time. I've walked out of their session feeling completely terrible and a little bit shocked at how quickly and with how little information life changing verdicts can be dished out. It's taken me a few days to come to the realisation of the facts I've stated above.

There are other things about the session which really upset me, but I've gone on long enough. The only thing I can guarantee is that the counsellor has had a great night's sleep every night since last Wed. 2 hrs a night for me 😞

Re: Where do I go from here?

Summer Rose — Sun, 26 Feb 2023 09:09:16 GMT

Hi Sentinel23

One of my early exposures to a mental health professional was as a carer for my teenage daughter who was profoundly unwell. This child psychiatrist was “one of the best” according to our GP, yet he wasn’t. Rude, arrogant, judgemental and offering a treatment plan that didn’t work.

Just because someone is a “professional” doesn’t mean they’re good at their job.

I guess what I’m trying to say is don’t be afraid to change. Trust your gut. I really don’t believe it should feel like two against one in the sessions.

If you decide to stick with this one, a few thoughts…

If you feel on the back foot and can’t respond quickly enough, say so. Tell them you need to carefully consider the question and that you’ll address it in the next session.
Take notes so you can keep track of the discussion(s) and follow up at the next.
Ask questions about what’s going to happen in the session at the start. Make sure you’re comfortable with the plan or try to influence it. Ask what will be happening at the next session at the end, so you can prepare.
If you think something isn’t fair say so. Explain how you are feeling in a respectful, and calm way. Suggest the changes you’d like to see (eg being allowed to finish your sentences).
Consider providing the counsellor and your wife with your feedback about the first session and see if you can establish some shared principles or rules for conduct.

I’m really sorry you’re not sleeping. Please take good care and be kind to yourself.

Kind thoughts to you

Re: Where do I go from here?

Summer Rose — Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:26:10 GMT

Hi again

I was just thinking about your post and wanted you to know that there will inevitably be times in any marriage where life gets in the way of being the kind of partner we want to be.
I can remember many times feeling that way about my husband (usually because of his work commitments) and him feeling that way about me (usually because of work or taking care of children or both). Sometimes there’s just not enough left in the tank.

You’re not the only one who has struggled to get the balance right all the time. Please don’t be too hard on yourself.

Kind thoughts to you

Re: Where do I go from here?

sentinel23 — Mon, 27 Feb 2023 01:45:35 GMT

Hi Summer Rose,

Once again, thankyou for your well considered and thoughtful responses. I really appreciate the time and effort you are putting into them. I think they are all great points that you raise.

It's ironic you used the word "fair" as fairness was something we spent some time discussing. My two takeaways from that were "sometimes marriages aren't fair" and I shouldn't "try to impose my values" on my wife. Whatever that means. The more I type, the more my gut tells me this will only do more damage than good.

I'm sorry you had that experience with your daughter's psychiatrist. My daughter also had mental health issues at that age and I know what a roller coaster that is. I hope you were able to find someone better able to help her.

Re: Where do I go from here?

Summer Rose — Mon, 27 Feb 2023 21:32:22 GMT

Hi Sentinel23

If my thoughts and words can help you in anyway I’m glad. It is a pleasure to chat.

The word fair is a tricky one. Life isn’t fair and as our marriages exist against the backdrop of our lives I don’t believe they are always fair either.

For example, when our daughter fell sick I left my career to care for her. It wasn’t even discussed, just had to happen (and I’m not complaining I wanted to do it). But I have never been able to return to my previous corporate executive level work. Looking back, was that fair? Was it fair that while my husband was able to maintain his career he had to carry the financial burden alone? And do this with little or no support from me (at times) because I was so consumed and exhausted from caring responsibilities?

None of it was fair. Most of all to our girl who suffered terribly.

But we did what we had to do and got on with it. Thankfully we don’t harbour any resentment towards each other, just the opposite—we are proud of how we worked together for our family. But you get the point about fairness in a marriage.

However, I do think a process such as marriage counselling should be fair. The ground rules should be fair and you should be afforded a fair hearing.
Kind thoughts to you

Re: Where do I go from here?

Summer Rose — Mon, 27 Feb 2023 22:00:53 GMT

Hello again

Just occurred to me that I didn’t answer your question. Yes, we found the right help for our girl. Yes, she has learned to manage her condition. Woo-hoo!

I would also like to add a comment about values. In the example I shared about the actions we took when our daughter fell sick, we were on the same page because we had shared values. Family first.

I don’t believe either one of us could have imposed our values on the other. So, if for example, my husband would have wanted to maintain our financial well being instead of making the necessary adjustments to adapt to one income, I believe our marriage would have been over as our values would simply have become incompatible.

Does that help you understand the counsellor’s comment?

Kind thoughts to you

Re: Where do I go from here?

geoff — Mon, 27 Feb 2023 22:09:07 GMT

Hello Sentinel23, sometimes marriage counselling doesn't go the way you had expected, as it didn't with me and my wife, because they tend to pick up on one issue and make that person feel so guilty, which then in turn makes them say nothing any more, rather than listening to the whole story from both sides and then talking about these problems.

They are the balance between resolving these issues and if this is not done and they single out one person then the session won't achieve anything.

If you don't like the counsellor then waiting for 6 sessions is a waste of time because you won't be listening or doing what they say to you, so change before you have only 4 sessions left and find someone you like and understands what you are saying.

If your wife just wants to avoid talking about these issues, then you won't get what you are trying to achieve.

Geoff.

Life Member.

Re: Where do I go from here?

sentinel23 — Tue, 28 Feb 2023 00:24:37 GMT

Hi Summer Rose,

Glad to hear your daughter is on top of things now. Our's is well on the way and I'm proud of her overcoming all the things she has in the last few years!

I think you are spot on with what the counsellor was driving at with the word fair. One thing I've noticed with our marriage is that when life has thrown something unfair at us, we are at our best. Partly because those are the times we really felt like we had each other's back, partly because we pushed all our other issues to the side. Maybe the one time this didn't happen was in the early days of our daughter's problem, due to denial and lack of understanding on my part. I got there eventually.

The thing I pointed out to the counsellor was that we also need to feel we are being treated fairly by our partners. Whilst not imposing my values on her, I said if we can see the difference in what each of us thinks is fair, this might be a good starting to point to gain some understanding and empathy of the other person's point of view. This then turned into a discussion about empathy vs sympathy, which I don't think added a lot to the conversation.

What I do know is that chatting to people on here has given me a lot more insight into our marriage and the way I think about things than all the counselling I've done so far.

Re: Where do I go from here?

sentinel23 — Tue, 28 Feb 2023 00:54:36 GMT

Hi geoff,

Sorry to hear counselling didn't work out for you. I think you've perfectly described my expectations. So far we've had about 8 sessions with 2 different counsellors and I can't think of one thing, no matter how small an issue, that has been resolved.

I'll try and talk to my wife and see what she thinks. I was thinking even if we spend the first session talking about our expectations, how the sessions will be conducted, the points Summer Rose raised earlier, and figuring out if we both the like person in general. If that costs us a session, rather than wasting three it will be worth it.