topic Re: Surviving narcissism in Relationship and family issues

Surviving narcissism

white knight — Tue, 17 Jan 2023 12:00:34 GMT

I used to believe narcissism was rare, but its more common than I thought. Ultimately someone wanting control over individuals or entire families is common and one must identify it in order to deal with it.

What is "narcissism". Well, it's told by many a professional - just google it and can include some or all of the methods below-

Triangulation of people
Lack of empathy
self centred
manipulation
use of others as blind supporters
expectations of being superior
Can feel insecure

There are others of course. To be fair some suffer NPD and if you read this and you are getting treatment then you deserve the highest praise.

If you suffer any mental illness particularly low self esteem, a submissive persona or you are excessively reliant then you could feel trapped in a life with someone that is controlling. The one with control could at worst, control members of your family so suddenly you are battling against a gang on a field the narcissist has paved for use as a battlefield. You arent a fighter but you have no choice, you face them, the narcissist is at the back pulling the puppet strings of her pawns at the front. The more you admit fault the greater power they feel they have until you fully submit.

Most articles I've read suggest "no contact" but with other relatives drawn in it isnt easy facing losing them. This is a prime situation to seek counselling because you'll doubt yourself, your actions that you are criticised for.

Anything you say can and will be used against you, twisted and blended in with the distant past, a time when you'd agreed to leave that alone suddenly it's dragged up again to build their arsenal. You'll need to decide, do you tolerate such conflict or do you seek relief, happiness and a life full of mature people surrounding you?

A close relative recently rang me crying saying "I've lost my Aunty and looks like both my cousins" as her cousins were dragged into a dispute between her and her aunty. But my daughter has a close network of friends and me and her mum so I asked her "people come and go from our lives, do you really want these people to keep ties with you"? After a few days she realised that to preserve her mental health she would move on. It's tough but you'll survive

TonyWK

Re: Surviving narcissism

Bob_22 — Sat, 21 Jan 2023 01:49:24 GMT

Interesting post Tony. Thanks for sharing. I definitely relate with people with narcissistic traits bringing up old or irrelevant matters into an argument. The way I see it, it is often best to lose gracefully and live according to your own morals and standards. It's hard but I find limiting contact is the best way to go about doing this.

Re: Surviving narcissism

AnotherRandomUser — Sat, 21 Jan 2023 02:23:46 GMT

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and posts about this, its been helping me face up to my own family's narcissism.

It really is like being at war, but often your not even sure who your enemy is because the narcissists will have you convinced its all your own fault that they treat you badly or that you feel stressed. You'll spend years trying to do everything right, and it will never be enough.

Leaving I feel is the best option, even if just to clear your own head and see things from a new perspective. One they can't manipulate. Getting therapy to help with self doubt can be really helpful too; also learning to say no, and learning to spot and stop/ignore attempts they make to set you up to fail (because they get an ego boost when you do fail.) Eg. Picking fights, trying to trigger you, making promises they wont keep.

Its also worth noting that narcissists do gang up on people, so its easy to think "well if everyone hates me, I must be the problem." But chances are that's not true, and you've been ganged up on.
Its truly an evil thing when someone uses other people to hurt you, or convinces them your bad before you even get a chance to defend yourself. It can be very isolating. But know its not your fault.

But in the end I think NPD awareness can help both those with NPD and their victims get the support they need to move forward. Because without intervention, NPD can be very abusive, and it hurts everyone involved. But with support it is possible for things to improve.

To everyone who has been through this, I wish you the best, and I hope you can find a way out, and a way forward.

Thanks again to you White Knight for your words too. Its appreciated.

Re: Surviving narcissism

white knight — Sat, 21 Jan 2023 10:26:37 GMT

Hi Bob

Thankyou for replying.

I endorse your ideal view of limited contact. However, that wouldn't work with an "all or nothing" family mentality. This type of approach is ingrained due to all of us having mental health issues mainly bipolar. When narcissism is discovered in a kin member, it's similar to keeping a relationship going once you've discovered a similar terrible fact about them. The reason is simple regarding narcissism, that a narcissist is constantly dreaming up schemes to conquer and ruin any hope of stability, stability being a major need for most mentally unwell people.

What do you think?

TonyWK

Re: Surviving narcissism

white knight — Sat, 21 Jan 2023 10:35:06 GMT

Hi AR

Thanks. That fear of the narcissist seeking triggers or scheming, using innocent bystanders not involved in a conflict can be tiring and you must always be on your guard. Not easy. At 66yo I'm tired of fighting for that basic right of stability. It's time to move on from the turmoil

TonyWK

Re: Surviving narcissism

W_Crane — Mon, 23 Jan 2023 01:41:30 GMT

I read / listened to a lot of webpages, podcasts, youTube videos, etc.

One tip is to temporary disassociate yourself. Look at situations, interactions, relationships from an imaginary 3rd person's view without the feelings involved. Was was said (no assumptions about the meaning), what happened (interactions, reactions, etc.), how did people react..

Often that creates clarity... which is needed and maybe lower own expectations...

Re: Surviving narcissism

white knight — Mon, 23 Jan 2023 03:28:45 GMT

Hi W_Crane

Agree, I watched a youtube yesterday on tolerating narcissism. He suggested you can be pleasant and tactfully dismissive at the same time. Eg Narc says- "so I assume our troubles aren't over, my daughters think the same" Answer- "Oh, sorry to hear that, I'm sure you'll work it out, now I must be running along..."

There is no balance point with a narcissist, whereby your words cannot be manipulated twisted or politicised. My answer printed above could be twisted to be relayed as

"he said he was sorry so thats as close to an apology I'll ever get"
"he dismissed me within seconds in a nasty manner"
"He told me to work it out alone... how dare he"

If there are "flying monkeys" present then they often would agree with the narc on her/his assessment.

This is why "no contact" is promoted on web pages on 'how to deal with a narcissist'. The only way you'll "win" against a narcissist is to become a flying monkey.

It isnt easy, but once you go "no contact" there must be a reason why there is a huge sigh of relief as you realise the peace in ones life is profound

TonyWK

Re: Surviving narcissism

Bob_22 — Tue, 24 Jan 2023 04:57:31 GMT

Thanks Tony for your reply.

That's true. I hadn't thought of that dynamic before. Tbh I don't have much knowledge of NPD or what it entails and am approaching this from probably a too simplistic point of view. I suppose if it were a close family member displaying narcissistic traits I would find it easiest to let them have their way but this isn't necessarily what's best. It would probably be most constructive to have a dialogue about their behaviour, the causes and how you both can best approach conflict in the future. This would have to be an ongoing conversation.

Bob

Re: Surviving narcissism

Guest_1584 — Sat, 28 Jan 2023 11:03:15 GMT

Yeah that's one of the big angles.

With my sister even if you brush it off and dismiss, she'll probably just throw back a new one so fast that you didn't even have a chance to depart yet - or in my case hang up.

lt's all such a ridiculous crazy game to them , they seem to thrive on it.

Mind you , on the other side of the coin l spent most of that ridiculous 2hr call straightening out her assumptions and accusations bc they'd been getting thrown around at me and to anyone else that'd listen according to her , behind my back, 4 or 5yrs, but other times l hadn't bothered.

l'm sort of glad l finally did and l could see her jaw dropping over the phone, bc it'd all been bugging me for yrs. But my main regret is well firstly that l gave her the satisfaction of 2 hrs of bs though- caused by her but l was hoping to smooth over whatever the hell had been going on about me those 4 or 5yrs. This was before l realized through that call and later that she had literally turned narcissistic and later that she'd actually been showing the traits for yrs, l just hadn't talked to her to enough through all that time to know- but it was very obvious now through this mad call , coupled with the last l'd had with her 3yrs ago.

My other regret is that there were still 3 or 4 of her presumptuous come made up accusations, that l did just ignore, and they're still bugging me 4 or5 wks later. God l wished l'd gone the whole hog and nailed those to while l was at it.

ln all honesty at the time though to me they just didn't even deserve a reply, which is a bad habit of mine but since l've been wishing l did.

Bc if l never talk to her again now those few things will forever go un nipped in the butt.

Re: Surviving narcissism

white knight — Sun, 29 Jan 2023 10:50:08 GMT

Hi rx

The only regrets I have is allowing regrets to exist...

TonyWK

Re: Surviving narcissism

Guest_1584 — Sun, 29 Jan 2023 11:52:55 GMT

But how do you not ?

l mean l've had some big regrets through life but some l can let go , some l've even turned into positives in some way.

But how do you not allow some or others ?

You know , l was thinking about sending her a text debunking those last few things,or these will go on bugging me just like they did from the last call to her yrs back unless l do. Or , l somehow find a way to not allow it as you say .

Any thoughts on should you or shouldn't you send a text about it ?

lt's be my last communication with her.

Re: Surviving narcissism

white knight — Sun, 29 Jan 2023 23:45:31 GMT

Hi rx

I really understand this need to fill the gap of explaining the information you forgot to give at the end of the conflict. It eats you up. However there is ramifications for doing so at a later date, even worse much later on.

you will be seen as very unstable as they will know you dwell on issues
them knowing it eats you up might give them satisfaction and elevate themselves
you confirm (in their eyes) you need the last word
having the last word can be seen as needing to be dominant (not unusual for narcs to claim other people are narcs!)
Dwelling on issues highlights a separate problem you have that should imo needs attention.

In the following thread, the need to protect yourself when the conflict is occuring is appropriate but not after the conflict has been and gone-

https://forums.beyondblue.org.au/t5/staying-well/vulnerable-dwelling-unprotected/m-p/282933/highlight/true#M26726

https://forums.beyondblue.org.au/t5/staying-well/people-apples-of-empathy/td-p/257267

The following thread is on dwelling, as in your situation, a need to finish the unfinished-

https://forums.beyondblue.org.au/t5/staying-well/who-cries-over-spilt-milk/td-p/43088

Question- if you plan not to have any relationship with a narcissist, why does a need for any words need to be said?

TonyWK

Re: Surviving narcissism

Guest_1584 — Mon, 30 Jan 2023 06:04:36 GMT

Thanks very much Tony

The funny side to all that is, she brings up an exact copy of her ph call three yrs ago , it was like 5mins had past. So we know who dwells then don't we eh but we also know a narc won't even realize that or that we see through them.

l'll be back later.

Re: Surviving narcissism

Guest_1584 — Mon, 30 Jan 2023 12:05:27 GMT

Read the first link and thanks for that but unfortunately yeah, life certainly is that way sometimes.

l'm rather complex in that way and hold different thoughts. For one , l refuse to go through life on guard or ready to fire at any split second, l like my life and people mutually relaxed and enjoyable. l also have another weird thing about explaining myself to anyone. lf it's someone genuine in my life or in just life and worthwhile or needed , l will try to but also to keep it brief but there are many other times and people you come across where l refuse to even bother and they can think what they like bc l often couldn't care less anyway. lt works well mostly and you only end up bothering with those that matter in your world. Trouble is , the two ways can also get a bit blended at times l've been that way for so long and now and then you don't or just couldn't be bothered bothering, but where really you should've or often end up later wishing you did, but the chance is gone.

learnt a long time ago that really you need to straighten things out in life when they arise and you have the chance or usually you've missed the opportunity. But it's easier said than done.

That sister, l pulled no punches straightening out some of her assumptions and rubbish her jaw would drop and things would turn polite until a few minutes later and she's dreamed up another one. lt was not only ridiculous but exhausting and l just couldn't be bothered with some of it..

But tbh l wish l did though, her crap deserved the full work over.