topic Re: Wife withdrawn in Relationship and family issues

Wife withdrawn

Duesentrieb — Fri, 12 Aug 2022 07:59:52 GMT

Hi guys,

I am married to my wife for 18 years.

Since the beginning she used the Silent Treatment (ST) in any conflict or when something didn't go her way. We discussed it but without any success. The fact that I always ran after her, trying to pacify her, didn't really help either.

2018 the ST increased. I wrote her a letter. She laughed it off by saying that I would be over-dramatic and that she wouldn't do anything. How could I be possibly affected. I even suggested counseling, but she refused categorically.

Bringing up issues in the relationship has always been a difficult one. Often, she

- gets passive aggressive (silent treatment, defiance, sulking)

- use deflection (OK, but you.... )

- projection (accusing me of not loving her, being happy when she is not around, etc.)

- minimized the issue and my view (no true, I am sensitive, etc.)

Tries to clarify something after silent treatment could lead to another round of it with her saying … if you would love me you would know what you did wrong

I started to research, and it went from ST to narcissism. In addition, I learned that I am a people pleaser, emotional dependent, and anxious about conflicts. When she was angry, I switched into a childlike frozen state. As well I learned that the relationship is quite single sided when it comes to affection, attention, effort, etc.

I stopped to run after her when she gave me the ST. I became more assertive but as well at times judgmental, resentful, etc.

2019 my wife found that I was in a Facebook group about narcissism and that I talked to other people about our issues. Both, she considered as a major breach of trust. I understand her anger and apologized.

Since this time, she is totally withdrawn, stone-walls me, conversations are just functional, etc. I constantly tried to reconnect but without success. She just does not open up. If I ask I get just a simple "All OK". I went for counseling twice and both counselors confirm that she seems to be difficult (see below).

I am at my wits end. The difficulties are one thing but the distance she creates kills me. Any advice?

Re: Wife withdrawn

smallwolf — Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:35:52 GMT

welcome back.

I notice you have been around here a while and the same problems persist 😞

I just wonder what your wife is like when you both go out for dinner?

what happens if you ask her about what's on her mind?

I would also be curious about what suggestions the counsellors gave you? You don't really have to answer this one.

That said, the one but of advice I received was to speak in terms if "I" about a problem and to make sure you lose a lot of empathy to lower the defenses of the other person. It might be ...

I am concerned that we do not speak very much and I am sure things must be also be difficult for you with [insert reasons here]. If I were in your position ....

hope some of this helps. Of course, the counsellors might also have suggested the above. Listening to you.

Re: Wife withdrawn

quirkywords — Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:57:57 GMT

Duesentrieb

You have been coping for many years with ST and your withdrawn wife.

I thank you for your honesty.

I wonder like small wolf how your wife behaves in front of others and when out to dinner .

My partner is wonderful to everyone but controlling to me and dominating. The version of the ST I experience is sulking for hours and being ignored .

You are not alone we are listening.

Re: Wife withdrawn

Duesentrieb — Fri, 12 Aug 2022 14:41:49 GMT

Thank you for your reply.

I just realized how many times I have been here and still look for answers.

If we go out for dinner she is OK but we mainly talk functional things as we have to bring our son along. He is 14 but she doesn't want that he stays alone at home and a baby sitter is too expensive in her opinion.

That was basically always like that. Of course he had some sleepovers, camps etc. and when we go out it's most of the time dinner and maybe cinema. At dinner we talk but there is always this distance. But if I look around we are one of the least engaged couples. In the cinema the same and most of the time she falls to sleep.

If I ask her what's on her mind I will get things like work, house, etc.

- Counselor 1 gave me tools like assertive communication, I sentences, etc. but with the confirmation that she is difficult and information if I would consider a separation.

- Counselor 2 (just recently) was a bit more direct. Confirmed that she seems to be difficult and she (the counselor) doubts that the situation will change. I should give it a time frame, build up a support network in the meantime and switch into action when the time is up. She made it quite clear that separation would possibly the best.

If I mention that we do not speak as before.. she will say yes but she prefers to be quite so that she doesn't get hurt. Of course hinting to all my wrongdoings (mainly the narcissistic accusation, being on that closed FB forum).

Both counselors basically said ...

Yes she had the right to be angry, maybe 1 week, maybe 2 weeks... but then she should have asked how I come to that idea. There is no curiosity and/or possibly she is not reflecting her behavior at all.

I explained it partly to her but in her opinion that's nothing as she is not doing anything.

Re: Wife withdrawn

Duesentrieb — Fri, 12 Aug 2022 15:11:48 GMT

Thanks for your reply.

As mentioned above when we go out she is ok but most of the time the conversation is functional, prevention possible hot topics and there is this distance. When we are out with friends it's OK as she tries to be the perfect couple.

If she would say she needs an time-out to cool down. No problem but it is so clear that she is using the silent treatment to guilt me. She does not eat... when I bring her food she doesn't touch it. Once she slept in the walking wardrobe... I picked her up with umbrella from the train station... no change of hart... It's all years ago but it is still in my mind....

The problem is not anymore so much her passive aggressiveness... that I can handle today as I have tool for that. If she is giving me the silent treatment, I tell her if she is ready to talk I am there otherwise I am doing my stuff.

Today it's this huge distance she creates...

If I come home and say hello, she doesn't look at me. If she gets up in the morning and I am working at my computer she doesn't say good morning or comes to me. In the evening we watch TV, the film ends and she gets up to go to bed, no good night. BTW we sleep separately as I snore very bad. We drive car, maybe you scurry someone's hair, nothing. I give her a hug, she returns it but the hug of my Chinese supplier feels warmer. We lie in bed.... yes I can massage her back, head... But there is no reciprocity at all. In the last 10 years that happened maybe 5 times...

It's maybe hard but our son hardly witnesses ever that she moved towards me to hug me, kiss me... OK, we are not teenagers anymore but I am not dead, yet.

Re: Wife withdrawn

geoff — Fri, 12 Aug 2022 15:26:23 GMT

Hello Duesentrieb, this silent treatment can be referred as a type of emotional abuse, and I've been through this myself many times, and it's simply awful because there doesn't seem to any reason why this has to happen, rather than discussing the pro's and con's, which may allow a reasonable settlement.

When the ST happens, you are grasping at why this type of abuse is happening and after many times it does you walk away in annoyance, stumbling to try and understand why this has to be the situation and then primarily stick to what you believe.

After a an hour, a few hours or the next day you go back and try to reason with her, but the door is still locked and won't open until you concede, not that you want to, but can suddenly stop the ST.

Eventually though, when this happens many times, it eats away at you and begins to affect you mentally and may need counselling by yourself first, then you will have the tools when you both go to couple counselling.

I know how irritating this can be and hope you can get back to us.

Geoff.

Life Member.

Re: Wife withdrawn

geoff — Fri, 12 Aug 2022 15:33:15 GMT

Hello Duesentrieb, if she does ask you, it doesn't matter because the look she may give you only indicates she wants to be in control.

Geoff.

Life Member.

Re: Wife withdrawn

ecomama — Fri, 12 Aug 2022 19:28:08 GMT

Hey Duesentrieb, please realise you're not alone in trying to deal with a relationship of this dynamic.

Clearly you've tried to reach out for a long while, here & via FB. Also sought support / advice from MH professionals.

Getting an education about your wife's personality type surely helps you understand what type of person she is. This is a very good idea to do. It shows how committed and dedicated you are to making this marriage "work" or better said... suit you better.
So I believe you've had TONS of advice.

Perhaps the advice you're really after is "How do I change my wife's behaviours, so I'm happier in our marriage?". To this I think possibly that no one has point blank told you, or maybe you've not liked their responses.

The bottom line is that you can't change your wife's behaviours.
Her behaviours SUIT her.
She maybe not be "happy" but when are narcissists ever happy? The answer is never.
They do enjoy manipulating others, very much!
They usually choose an empath to partner with, which drives an empath crazy.
They simply see nothing wrong with their behaviours at all.

The Counsellor who had you look at Family Law was gently trying to lead you to the conclusion of many understandings.

So imo, you have 2 choices.
1 is try to deal with this lack of intimacy (I mean connection kind of intimacy) in your marriage and stay
OR

2 get your ducks in a row and leave the marriage.

Either way, work very hard to recognise the red flags in other potential partners and NOT do what I did... narc after narc after narc - not recommended lol.

I'm good now. But recovering from Narcissistic abuse is real. Being IN the relationship is painful. Leaving a narc is wrought with many bumps in the road for our MH also.

Kind thoughts to you
EM

Re: Wife withdrawn

Duesentrieb — Sat, 13 Aug 2022 13:55:25 GMT

Thanks again, the silent treatment doesn't really bother me anymore. She managed to reduce that and today I just do my thing until she is ready to talk. I guess she doesn't like it but she can't do much.

It is the withdrawal of almost three years. What drives me crazy is that it seems that she is totally OK with that way of living together. I try to reconnect but there is no effort from her side....

Re: Wife withdrawn

Duesentrieb — Sat, 13 Aug 2022 14:04:53 GMT

I guess control has a high priority for her. When I stopped to react on her Silent Treatment she was quite shocked. Today for example I am not trying to be super agreeable anymore which shocks her too.

And yes there are plenty of little things that she like to be in control. I believe that this is not conscious but it still creates issues.

Re: Wife withdrawn

Duesentrieb — Sat, 13 Aug 2022 15:02:10 GMT

Thank you so much ecomama...

I can't and don't want to change her. I am listening to a podcast that I really like. The guy there says basically you have to set boundaries and communicate (for you - what you accept or not), you can change behavior when you implement accountabilities and consequences but if that does not work you have to accept it or leave. But that guy highlights as well to not enable undesirable behavior through secondary gain. Something I have done. I said / did something. She gets angry and is doing the silent treatment (undesirable behavior) and I ran after her and try to pacify her (secondary gain due to attention, etc.)... But still no excuse to behave like that.

You are right they do not see their wrongdoing or they relativise it. We passed once a punk girl, my wife says to our son please do not bring such a girl home. I was a bit pissed because I thought that this was quite insulting and said to our son you can bring home whoever you like. We discussed that later... 10% her wrongdoing as she shouldn't have judged like that but 90 percent me as I was not loyal to her, I stab her in the back, in front of our son we are not a team, bla bla bla... It is as she has the sole entitlement to be hurt, disappointed, angry, feel betrayed, etc.

As mentioned, all that is manageable but this distance, coldness, not accommodating, single sided effort drives me crazy and she seems to be all right with that which totally confuses me. Possibly this of living it is bearable for her and has enough advantages. That confuses me so much. If I see couples in TV, the street, etc. which act and treat each other in a loving way I feel sad.

Last night we were lying in bed watching a film. I rubbed her back and after 30 minutes she fell to sleep. Nothing wrong but this time I tried to identify what I feel. I realized that I just felt emotionally drained because it is obvious that there will be reciprocity. It's not the rub it's the missing intimacy / easiness towards each other and it will never be there...

Re: Wife withdrawn

ecomama — Sat, 13 Aug 2022 16:14:22 GMT

I believe she is fine with the way things are.
IDK why either.
You can spend your life time studying these types of personality types and it could be worth the time... it was for me to come to the reality of the situation and end the marriage.
Mine was significantly worse than what I know of yours.
Still it's not pleasant.

When you study traits of narcissists, there are so many points to realise.
I was actually thinking of you today and wanted to convey one of these clearly.

It's not that they are like us and are acting in such a way (indeed manipulation is always underlying actions), it's that they don't have the capacity to connect on an intimate level. I don't mean sex. I mean true connection, including reciprocated empathy.
There are so many more traits to research you may see in your wife, IDK.

Indeed this all can "drive you crazy", you used this phrase so many times.... is it the mind effing that's happening OR the lack of control over the situation OR the disappointment OR.... ?
Perhaps all of the above and more.

You can work out what she needs from you, the key is in another narc phrase "The Queen (usually it says King) and her servants". That's how narcs see family, friends, everyone... someone to serve them.
Of course she's fine with a one sided effort lol, it SUITS her fine.

This entire relationship appears to be full of "games", Guess what's in my head game and so on. This will drive any one crazy.

There ARE ways to begin to get your life back in increments, but you'll be drawn back in again and again with what is called "kibble" if you stay.
The Strategy is called "The 180 Strategy".

If you're desperately unhappy in this marriage and you know you've done everything you can, the only conclusion is to end it. I know you want answers that will fix this. There really aren't any IME.

Best wishes
EM

Re: Wife withdrawn

Duesentrieb — Sun, 14 Aug 2022 04:34:08 GMT

Hi ecomama

No, no more studying. Sometimes I think she is just like that, with or without my wrongdoings. She just would find something else instead.

Yes, there is no emotional and reciprocal intimacy/connection. It’s feel like a trade. You give me this, I give you that, but always on top of the deal.

I had a look at the 180 topic. It’s a bit off for me. But there are some valid points.

Somehow, I still don’t get my head around the fact that she seems to be totally OK with the current state and I struggle so much that I consider separation. She considered 3-4 times leaving but more out of anger. The last one was the most serious one, 3/2020. She was secretly looking for accommodation.

I struggle if I should say something. We had discussions but never in which I considered separation.

In my opinion there are so many things lacking like kindness, trust, mutuality, reciprocity, intimacy that I am not sure what to say.

- If I say something, she will accuse me of extortion (change or I’ll leave), feel pressured, etc.

Or she starts faking it to keep the status quo, which is basically today already the case.

- If I don't say anything and just walk without an explanation then there will be no discussion, no drama, no blame game, no potentially artificial prolonging. Deceiving is the fact that I am in general a very positive person and that she never saw it coming.

Re: Wife withdrawn

smallwolf — Sun, 14 Aug 2022 07:52:25 GMT

hello again.

I do not really know much about your situation except what you have posted here. And I am wondering about the purpose of the silent treatment towards you - as hurtful as it is.

a) keep matters unresolved?

b) result of own experiences?

c) her views don't matter?

d) other

I am sure there are plenty of other possibilities and that you have the gone through these with the counsellors and others you have spoken to.

Yet your wife was able to respond in regards to "punk girl" where she felt unsupported. It seems your wife has (other)views and beliefs that may or may not align with yours. Here I would be happy to be proven wrong.

Yet when you mentioned "she will accuse me of extortion (change or I’ll leave), feel pressured, etc." makes me think is this avoidance and why?

I wish I could could offer you something positive. instead I will just sit with you here

Re: Wife withdrawn

Duesentrieb — Sun, 14 Aug 2022 10:12:21 GMT

Hi smallwolf,

The purpose, I am not sure. The result was that I ran after her, apologetic, consoling her, etc.

Yes, things hardly got resolved. Sometimes I didn’t even know why she was angry. If I tried to talk about it, e.g. 2 weeks later it could lead to another round with the comment if I would love her I would know.

But the silent treatment for me that’s not really an issue anymore.

The punk girl… it took weeks until she told me about it. And that’s the thing, I consider both wrongdoings as possibly quite equal. She considers hers as a slip up, my as a major betrayal which is of course much worse. And that’s a pattern including the silent treatment. I do/say something wrong, she gets angry and I should say sorry.

But issue today is more her seemingly unforgiving,.. definitely withdrawn, distant behaviour…

Re: Wife withdrawn

Duesentrieb — Sun, 14 Aug 2022 10:13:57 GMT

I don’t understand your question about the avoidance… She is avoiding or I avoid?

Re: Wife withdrawn

Duesentrieb — Mon, 15 Aug 2022 00:26:37 GMT

Hi ecomama,

I had a closer look at the 180 method. That is basically what both counselors recommended, with an focus on building up independence... have a circle of friends / support network, hobbies, know what I want, no victim-hood, get active,... Thanks again.

Re: Wife withdrawn

smallwolf — Wed, 17 Aug 2022 11:24:42 GMT

I was asking if she was avoiding.... as a way of not having to deal with the matter at hand?

Re: Wife withdrawn

Duesentrieb — Thu, 18 Aug 2022 04:17:46 GMT

Hi smallwolf....

I am not sure... in my opinion she sees basically only my wrongdoings.

The punk girl, she agrees that it was wrong from her but considers my comment as as major betrayal and back stabbing which is of course much worse. In her world there must be a culprit (not her) that is trying to hurt her, bring her down, attack her, etc. and of course in the worst way.

If I would mention my state of mind (considering separation) and the reasons (coldness, distance, withdrawal) she would interpret that as indirect critic and react like that...

First a bit of defiance (shock, sadness, ... weakness), then

- she would justify her behavior by reminding of my wrongdoings and/or say I am miss-interpreting her behavior, that I am sensitive, etc. or it has nothing to do with me (it's just stress because of work) and not everything revolves around me...

- complain that I force her to change her behavior as it feel like a threat to her....

I am not a big fan of internet articles/videos like ...."10 signs your partner (actually) doesn't love you", etc/... but reading / watching these make me think... especially if 7 out of 10 hit home....

Somehow you are right. She is avoiding... hard, truthful conversations. I must assume she knows what is going on within her but is simply not sharing that (maybe yet). Maybe culturally / traditionally (south east asia), religiously (muslim) and not being the culprit she is holding back.... and therefore creates and accepts the current situation. ...

Thanks again for your reply.

Re: Wife withdrawn

white knight — Fri, 19 Aug 2022 01:45:24 GMT

The ST (silent treatment) is a form of abuse when carried out in the extremes. What is extreme? When it is used as a weapon to harm others as opposed to protecting themselves. That's my interpretation after 11 years of abuse at the hands of my 1st wife. She was a master at it. From the very beginning we agreed she'd be a stay at home mum and I'd work. With a mortgage and low wages it meant me working 3 jobs one was 12 hour shift work. That would have been ok but the bare household duties weren't getting done and meals left for me to do with two small kids. I can say I changed nappies more than here, washed, mowed and so on.

I called a doctor for a home visit at 3pm he arrived and asked what the issue was. I pointed at my wife dressed in her dressing gown. So he took blood samples etc and one week later told me "her condition is chronic laziness". Unbelievable to hear from a Dr. But he was right as her 4 siblings were also.

The silent treatment was a master stroke because it is effective against those partner of goodwill ready to please. However eventually they lose because the spring is compressed too far. The contempt breaks ones will. So that led to a suicide attempt, my one and only, one week later while begging for a turn around in attitude she blew a smoke ring in my face. As I drove out of the street crying went to laughter- I was free.

I hope you find answer but commonly leopards dont change their spots and as she refuses to attend counseling I feel for you. Keep your head held high and remember, in the case of the ST, you are not wrong in finding it impossible to deal with.

TonyWK