topic Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection in Relationship and family issues

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

Praeteritus_braccas — Tue, 04 Aug 2020 05:23:35 GMT

In the last 5 weeks, my wife has laid an impossible amount of grievances at my feet, having only discussed it in depth 2 weeks prior and coming to the view that we were all good, especially considering this whole pandemic, working from home and with each other in the same business.

In short, my wife has decided that my many aspects of our 15 year relationship (7 years marriage) and best friends for 20 years, contain behaviours on my part that she has identified that are no longer acceptable. They include Manipulation, Emotional Abuse, Dominating, 'taking up all the oxygen', never taking the blame and much more. She now says that she has never been able to tell me the whole truth because she is terrified to talk to me. That she feels emotionally abandoned and unsupported. That there is deep resentment about specific events that go back 10 and 15 years.

I have PTSD from a deeply damaged childhood. I have had, and am having Counseling to work through my PTSD and behaviours that i know are difficult when im not at my best. My wife has a high anxiety all the time which is untreated. She avoids any conflict with anyone, not just me. We have known this about each other since the start, we have helped each other through our pain and built a life.

Within the last 5 weeks, we are now at crisis, my wife doesnt know whether she wants to be in the marriage anymore. My wife has chronic health issues, and we are both exhausted, both mentally and physically. We have agreed that we need to take the time to make a sound decision. not to rush into something that will rip our kids lives apart.

To confuse matters, when all this came about, i found out she is having an online relationship / emotional infidelity with a young 30 year old, who lives at home, no job, no commitments, no kids. complete online real time 24/7 unbridled support from the other side of the world. she now has feelings for this guy.

This has blown me out of the water to the point where my Anxiety is so pronounced i am taking serious Anti-Anxiety medication. I am in limbo until she decides what SHE wants.My Psychologist tells me its possible that i am being gas-lighted, shame dumped and she is blame shifting. She has never accepted any responsibility for anything, there is always a reason for her decisions and poor behaviour.

I continue to defend her position, to say she must be right, im the one who has failed. My Psych. says that I'm carrying an unfair burden.

I have never felt so worthless as a human.

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

white knight — Tue, 04 Aug 2020 07:06:36 GMT

Hi, welcome

Many interesting descriptions in your post. “She must be right” and “I’m the one who has failed “ kind of tells a story of low self esteem likely from your childhood issues. This could be a situation where you’re appeasing her, she knows it and with this online affair quite bluntly- you’re in the way of her emotional fantasies.

The gaslighting comment from your psych is also on the money imo. That takes attention away from her own errors/ deceit that she should be accountable for.

My children was 7 and 4yo whenmy first marriage split. I was extremely concerned for my kids and constantly rang their school to check on them. The principle eventually told me to relax, the kids are more resilient than us adults. Something to take into account.

Im sorry but I can’t iffer you much hope with your marriage continuing as it only takes one to ruin it. At this point on I would focus more on my own well being and if needed put aside some time to have strategies if the marriage dissolves.

Your children is your priority. My dad told me once- “ better to be a part time dad than no dad at all.”

Take care, Reply anytime.

TonyWK

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

Praeteritus_braccas — Fri, 07 Aug 2020 23:15:32 GMT

Thank you so much Tony for your advice.

wife initially agreed to put this online realtionship to the side so we could have clear air to go to coiples counselling, get our own counselling so she could work out whether or not she was prepared to even give me a chance.

I have now found out that less than a weeke after she has not only restablished the online relationship, but they are now in a 'relationship and has now become sexualised.

She is not aware that I know and is now lying to me and the children every time she looks at us and speaks to us.

We can't even see a couples counsellor until the end of the month.

In some ways this has confirmed what everyone is telling me that all the blame is being shifted to me to justify her actions, being gaslighted.

Even now I still defend her, this is clearly an addiction. If it was an alcoholic addiction or a drug addiction would I leave or stand by her to work through it. Is it part of a mental health problem.

I will feel like an a hole if it turns out later that she was / is in some sort of addiction based mental state that we could have worked through and i left without supporting her.

on the other hand, maybe this is the new version of my wife.

We can't know until we get to counselling. That's not for another 3 weeks.....

At least now I can stop doubting my own sanity, questioning my core fibre and essence of who I am. Even so there are issues on my side i need to own and address.

Its so exhausting having a brain, and more exhausting having your heart torn out.

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

Praeteritus_braccas — Fri, 07 Aug 2020 23:45:22 GMT

I wonder whether this post is in the wrong forum thread. Maybe better in the families one?

I posted here thinking my PTSD was at the whole core of our issues and would need advice about my PTSD.

Its so hard to think straight with this pressure and anxiety all the time.

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

ecomama — Sat, 08 Aug 2020 00:32:15 GMT

Dear Pants_77

Welcome to the forums. I'm glad you're here, yet so sorry for the reasons you came here.

If you wanted to start another thread in the Relationship / Families section then please do.
You can do whatever you want or need to as long as it's within the guidelines.

Indeed it seems like you're in a pressure cooker, so please reach out in any ways you need.

There are lots of understandings you can gain online by putting in a Search of your questions..
THIS is what saved me when exH was doing VERY VERY similar to me years ago.

Chumplady is awesome. In fact it would be a great site to help your mental health during this crazy time.

People who cheat seem to enjoy putting ALL the blame on their betrayed partner, when in fact it was THEIR decision to cheat and all blame lies solely on them. Your W is doing all the things mentioned by infidelity sites; blame shifting, rug sweeping, gaslighting, smoke screening and probably more, from memory there are 8 typical cheating behaviours.
The effects on the betrayed partner are closely aligned with Narcissistic abuse.

IF you depend upon Ws fidelity to move forward with your marriage then she is clearly not being faithful.

I decided I didn't want to do the whole "tracking and monitoring" palaver, that some sites recommend. No way.

I strongly suggest that you do NOT twist yourself in knots over Ws affair.
There is a thing called 'the pick-me dance', don't bother.
If W doesn't see the value in you, your marriage and your family as worth her focus then she's made her choice.

NB: I also noticed incredible cruelty from exH towards the children for a long time.
I know now that ex was horribly resentful towards them and me, wishing he could wipe the slate clean of the lot of us and start again.
Read up on Family Violence because if W if doing this to the children then you may be able to do something about it.

I wiped the slate clean for ex via multiple Courts.
None of us were born to be "burdens" on others, we simply don't need that abuse. Neither do you or your children.
I now have the children 100% and secured the home for us too. Our story was not that of simple infidelity, it was far far far worse, which all came out in the end.

You can read up on "the 180" and the Gray Rock Strategy. You may need these very much whilst continuing to live under the same roof with a cheating spouse.

Post as often as you want.
EM

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

therising — Sat, 08 Aug 2020 01:04:48 GMT

Hi Pants_77

Behaviours that are no longer acceptable can translate to be behaviours that have become intolerable.

While your wife may announce what she can no longer tolerate in you, I'm betting she holds some traits you find difficult to tolerate. Does she give you 'the silent treatment' at times? Does she give sighs of disapproval, where you ask what's wrong and she responds with 'Nothing'? By the way, impressive to hear you're finding greater self understanding, through the help of counselors. Such an effort is inspiring.

I actually told my husband some weeks back that I could no longer tolerate the relationship in the form it had been in for just over 20 years. I told him I could no longer tolerate the lack of excitement, the lack of adventure and him shutting me down arrogantly whenever it suited him (as opposed to listening to what I was trying to express). I told him that the depressing relationship we'd become so used to was over and he had the choice of beginning a new relationship with me or we could simply call it a day. When he told me that he's just not an adventurous or exciting guy, my response, 'You are, you just don't care to explore these aspects of yourself'. I'd tried leading him to excitement and adventure which he always genuinely enjoyed a lot. I could no longer tolerate being the one to put all the work into bringing out the best in this relationship.

So, we've started over. Even though we've been together for over 20 years, we are in a new relationship. There are many trial and error moments where communication remains paramount. I no longer fear his abusive comments because I refuse to tolerate them. Pants_77, you definitely should not be tolerating your wife's online affair. If you both want to look at starting a new relationship together, this is not the best way to start. I believe you both have to be honest in what you can't tolerate in each other and then deal with such factors together. Everything we can't tolerate holds a challenge. One spouse says 'You never really hear what I'm saying to you'. The others challenge is to listen more carefully, not listen carelessly. The other says 'You never pay any attention to when I'm feeling down'. Their spouse's challenge is to learn to read what being down looks and sounds like and then face the challenge of what it takes to raise them.

Relationships challenge us for good reason. While they may bring out the worst in us, they also hold the potential to bring out the best.

🙂

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

Praeteritus_braccas — Sat, 08 Aug 2020 06:15:20 GMT

Thank you for your kind and honest words of support and guidance. I've never been in a community like this before so it's all new to me. I didn't know what to expect.

I firmly believe that we are all flawed and can be a better human than the day before. thats why I continue to think my wife will come out of this online addiction, this fantasy. I want to believe she can..... that she can wake up?

I learned from the psychologist I saw 11 years ago and am seeing again now. We can transform into the next version of ourselves if we want to.

My psych said to me 9 years ago that my goal was to learn to cry. that was (one of) the paths to the next version of me and a healthy way to let out my deeply pent up PTSD issues. I hadn't cried for over 30 years because crying was the expression of weakness, that is what I was taught by the patriarchy.

When all this was laid out on me by my wife, our of nowhere that it was potentially all over, it hit me like a wrecking ball. I had been judged and awaiting sentence ( still waiting)..

When I saw my pysch 2 weeks ago, after explaining the situation to her, her first comment to me was about how crying was my goal she left me with 9 years ago, that it was how I would unlock the next version of me.

I just burst into tears. I had spent multiple times in tears everyday since my wife it out on me. One morning I cried while cutting up cucumbers for my girls. I couldn't thinking how many cucumbers am I gods get to cut up before they're gone, before all this ends. Before my fate is decided. I felt pretty ashamed for being weak. Then immediately stupid for thinking that.

I've digressed.

There is a lot of advice in all your replies that make perfect sense and also help to calm me down.

Despite what I survived growing up, I have never doubted myself like I have over the last 5 weeks.

Learning that she has gone back to this online fantasy has in some ways allowed me to remove the doubt about myself as to why this all didn't make sense. To know that despite being a flawed human, husband and father, that my values, focus and who I am at my core have worth, that I'm always moving forward, even if I stumble.

That " The 180" list just blew me away how much of that I'm doing so thank you for that ecomama. Thank you as well the rising. Both your advice is amazing.

I just wish I wasn't so in love with her.

But now I need to protect my children, give them all my love more than I ever have.

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

ecomama — Sat, 08 Aug 2020 08:29:52 GMT

Hi P77

I have C-PTSD from childhood/adulthood abuse. For me that's all "so what" in the mix of Ws behaviour in your case, in my case too. But I applaud your efforts of personal growth, healing & therapies.

Your girls & YOU will depend upon you to carry them through.

You've made the choice to "improve" yourself.
W has made her choice of continuing her affair.
I see that you are suffering from Ws infidelity, This is understandable. It's betrayal.

You said:
1. You're waiting for Ws decision?
2. Waiting for her to "wake up"?
3. From this "online fantasy"?

My responses:
1. By default you are doing the "pick me dance". You can Google this too re: affairs. All things in italics you can Google.
2. W is in the "affair fog" and is making her firm decision to stay in this zone with zero regard for the pain she's causing others, even you.
3. It's not a "fantasy" even though you want it to be. You are "minimising" Ws affair. This is an emotional affair. It's a real person who is responding to her in real time. They are in a REAL relationship, it's not in physical presence but it's real all right. It's within the very real realm of possibility that this person could & will fly out to be with her. Why not? Australia is a great place to live, especially with a sugar mama. They may have already discussed this.

SO this leads to now - you making a stand for your own dignity & self respect.
You refusing to be a doormat & an unwilling observer to Ws real affair in front of your face.

Please don't think you won't be cutting up cucumbers for your daughters in the kitchen for much longer....you will.

During spouse's affairs there have been many betrayed spouses who have presented their fait accompli to the cheating spouse in one fell swoop.
Tbh I would get prepared.

You can see the writing on the wall & frankly you do not deserve this type of abuse.

There's a Free Men's Legal Service you can call.
You can book Mediation (as per Family Law) & begin.
It's a LONG process.

IF & WHEN this process begins, W will KNOW FOR SURE you mean business & you will not put up with her bs a second longer.

Watch Brene Brown's "The Call to Courage" on Netflix. Her online talks too.

I'm glad you're connecting with the pain & learning how to cry WELL DONE YOU. This is NEVER a sign of weakness but a sign of emotional connection.

You're doing REALLY WELL and should acknowledge this to yourself.

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

therising — Sat, 08 Aug 2020 11:37:26 GMT

Hi Pants_77

So happy for you being able to vent through tears. This is a unique achievement. Tears are far from an expression of weakness. They are an expression of overwhelming powerful emotion. Crying, sighing, screaming, talking the stress out of us (therapy); there are a whole stack of ways in which we vent.

If you were given a choice to be sensitive or insensitive, which would you choose? It's crazy when you think about it but that 'Toughen up' mantra we're often taught in life can be seriously destructive. In saying 'Toughen up', folk may as well being saying 'Become more insensitive. Become numb to emotion, your own and the emotions of others. Be careless in how you feel, rather than careful.' It does all sound a little crazy, hey?!

Exploring who you naturally are requires sensitivity. As a mum to 2 teenagers this is what I tell both my daughter and my son. Sounds kinda strange but, as I say to them, you will feel a lie, just as you will feel the truth. I'll explain. As a kid, some of us may have been told that we're hopeless, weak or we're unlovable. Have a think about how we feel this message through our body. Our heart gets this sinking feeling. We may feel physically sick. We may even want to vent (cry) immediately. The truth does not feel this horrible. When someone says 'You're amazing. You're one of the most inspiring people I know', we can be left feeling like we're on cloud 9. We feel lighter, through our body. We feel raised. This is what the truth feels like. We lose our natural ability to be human lie detectors when we are taught to 'toughen up' or become numb. Another benefit to being so sensitive: When someone tells you something that doesn't ring true or something that brings you down and you feel it, this is where you learn to question 'What leads that person to say such a thing?' as opposed to thinking 'What's wrong with me?!' So, you become sensitive to other people's quirky or questionable nature.

So important to be sensitive in life. There are many benefits we're rarely ever taught about.

Definitely a tough road for you to be unlearning other people's faults. You know all those faults that belonged to those around you, growing up. A lot of the belief systems you've inherited aren't your faults when you think about it. Some may even have been passed through many generations, without question, and now you're endeavoring to consciously put a stop to it. Pretty powerful mind altering stuff. 'Tis a hero's journey.

🙂

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

Praeteritus_braccas — Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:06:38 GMT

OMG,

That pick me dance article just hit me right in the face.....

And then I read the affair fog.....

And then I read the minimising article.....

Im speechless.... just speechless.

And now I'm panicked again.

I just cant believe how text book this is.

And yet,.... my heart still wants to give this person who has been literally my best friend for nearly 20 years, the opportunity to come out of this, for us to heal and evolve, to save the family, the woman I love. But what I have right now is a shell, a poor facsimile of my wife.

Back to feeling like a love struck fool.

Today, in particular was weird, very chatty all day, starting most of the conversations (after making clear she didn't want to talk me for the last week or so).

she brought me a present because "you know, its been such a shit year and I thought you'd like it".

Nevertheless, I have gotten legal advice, evidence of the affair and we are for now-cohabitating until we get to counselling.

Part of my legal advice is to demonstrate my role as the primary carer, which I've been doing for last 5 months as well as running my business.

The further I look back, the more I see signs that I missed.

Love is so blinding when SO much trust is given.

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

white knight — Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:13:41 GMT

Hi pants

Being decisive doesn’t come natural for some, having PTSD indeed, any other mental illness can make such decision making quite hazy.

Living in hope when the changes required by your wife is unrealistic, is imo a form of self inflicted hurt. This evolves from fear of future guilt eg if you’re accused later of not helping her through what is proven to be an addiction.

To counter this cycle of thinking I suggest what is missing here is self assurance in what you know is best for you personally. Reading through your replies it’s almost like your feelings, your rights, are not as important as the possibility of her making forgivable mistakes.

If this is confusing we’ll even in a marriage when things fall apart- charity begins at home eg self protection must begin to override obligations to a cheating partner. If this does not take place then your focus is unrealistic and potentially much more hurtful as time goes on without any change in behaviour from your wife.

I had a partner once, step mum to my then 12yo daughter. My daughter left her dirty clothes in her floor. My partner swore at her and threw the clothes at her in anger. We had a meeting next day. My daughter apologised. When I asked my P to say sorry she diverted to other issues. I repeated reminded her that she swore and threw clothes at her. She kept diverting. After 20 minutes of this I realised our relationship was over. All because of dishonesty- she couldn’t own it. You can’t fight to get standards from other people that is at a minimum level. Gaslighting for example comes natural for some but you don’t have to tolerate it. Wrong is wrong is wrong.

I hope counseling helps you, but counseling only helps the willing- willing to stop unacceptable behaviour, willing to put family first, willing to (if she believes the marriage is doomed) to seek mature co decision making to separate and sort out finances and child access etc

She must be “willing”. If not then you should take control of your situation more- rather than remaining in limbo. Moving forward whatever direction that becomes, is better that the alternative- moss doesn’t grow on a rolling stone.

Thankyou BTW for answering all replies.

TonyWK

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

Praeteritus_braccas — Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:30:11 GMT

Thank you therising. The one compass I had for some unknown reason growing up was that I knew I was in toxic destructive world. That I didnt want to be anything like the people and community I was in. They were nothing more than an example of who not to be. But ultimately one cannot love through that without wearing some of those stripes.

Mostly my stress manifested in other ways. I put it all into my sport, and achieved a reasonable level of success being fueled by such deep emotion and adrenaline.

I decided to see a psychologist. I couldn't stop feeling angry about the past and I didn't want to repeat the cycle and pass that onto my baby on the way. BTW that was purely my own decision without and prompting.

As a child, I went from being abused at home, to being abused at school daily from the age of 5 till I was 17. There was no respite.

When I was 17 I had what until recently (now 42) was the worst year of my life. Thats a story in itself.

But im only realising now that one of my engrained behaviours is a directly threat response from the abuse from my mother growing up, compounded by the constant attacks everywhere I went.

My only defence was my intellect and brain as a child and young teenager. The ability to bring logic to an argument which was based in stripping me down, taking power from me to suit who ever it was. If got 'too clever' it was met with more vitriol and abuse. It wasn't until I left that town, went to university that it all stopped.

Until now, despite me journey for personal growth, it was actually my wife who pointed out that my mother was my abuser. I think i knew it deep down but avoided acknowledging it for a long time.

Its this automatic response that I have to criticism that creates tension in my marriage. Its the reason why my wife says now she can't tell me the honest truth about how she is feeling, what her issues are, why she feels unheard and emotionally abandoned and why she went seeking support elsewhere, online, why her actions are justified.

I have worked for the last 11 years on my responses, sometimes I drop the ball and don't react well. I stumble. It takes a huge amount of mindfulness to stem the fear of attack. I thought i was going well, that I had developed new sense of safe harbour for both of us, but part of the blame shifting was pointing out the times when I was at my weakest.i now think that W has been able to capilise on my damage. Knows how i get triggered....

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

Praeteritus_braccas — Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:39:10 GMT

Thank you white knight.

All your advise and everyone else's is amazingly on point.

This is so draining.

I guess that's why I'm desperate to get to counselling. I dont know what she is committed to because she doesn't.

But that doesn't happen until the 31st Aug.

I cant confront my wife about the affair without a professional to guide the discussion, the admission, if it comes, and see what comes of it. If I do it now, I think there will be absolutely zero chance. And if in that properly guided space, its clear that i need to make my own choice i will definitely do that. I have committed to that for my daughters.

For now its limbo, living a false imitation of our life. I know its fake, she knows as well.

We have agreed not to make a rash decision, to see what she is willing to commit to.

🙏🙏🙏🙏

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

ecomama — Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:57:43 GMT

Hi P77 (high five to Tony WK with everything you said! SO well put)...

Information is POWER P77. Zero need for panic, time for realisations.

Tony has HIT the nails so many times. The Brave Knight rides again lol.

P77, it's AWESOME you Googled some of those terms, I apologise for the shock but you'll be grateful later.

I have more, since you've written more... the "buy back phase" in Domestic Violence and abuse.
Ws affair comes under a few... "sexual abuse", "psychological abuse" and "emotional abuse".

In some states in the U.S. 'evidence of affairs' could get you the lot, all the assets and the kids 100%.

Not here. Family Law here doesn't give a hoot about affairs... pretty reflective of some Australian's morals IMHO. No evidence is required. You could tick a box of those abuses citing many things when it comes to lodging in Court. But ALL they care about is splitting the assets and splitting the care % of the children, then out. Next!

And there's "covert or coercive control" in DV.

By "Counselling" do you mean Marriage Counselling? I think it's a total waste of time, W lied to you... it's not far fetched to predict W will lie in Counselling. Abusers LOVE to blame the victims for all their behaviours. IF the Counsellor lays complete blame for Ws affair on you, leave. Some Counsellors do this and are part of the "Reconciliation Industrial Complex". Awful.

I'd get serious and book Mediation, like yesterday. It takes SO LONG to get in. Tbh I believe that you booking this is the only chance of W reconciling (but I wouldn't trust her intentions anyway - that's me).

Please have a look at Chumplady.com
You will see W reflected there too in text book style... but also your reactions...
There's AWESOME understandings to learn there in Chump Nation.

It gave me lots of laughs through my tears back then.
The motto "Leave a cheater gain a life" is spot on.

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

Praeteritus_braccas — Sun, 09 Aug 2020 04:37:45 GMT

Im really blown away by all the advice, support and being able to look at it from the outside.

Im not prepared to just 'call it right now sorry.

I am going to commit to the couples counselling (with a clinical pyschologist).

If the lying doesn't surface of her own volition, I will get straight to the issue and wont beat around. Im getting advice from my own counsellor as how to best table that should it not come from her.

The more i look at it, the more i see how my wife has been over a period of around 12 months, this guy has been able to get into my wofes mind and lay out a framework of sympathy, abuse and slowly get my wofe to see all my actions as toxic, manipulative and abusive. Basically ro catfish her. If i told you what he has fed her to trigger the sympathy and empathy in my wife it would blow you away. Even if his story is true, he has perfectly drawn my wife in.

The question remains as to why my wife felt tas to why it was easy to lean into that, which she bluntly has laid on me as my fault.

Don't get me wrong, I accept she has made this choice, and I WILL take my power, my choices back.

I no longer see the fate of our marriage as being in her hands, that i have to prove myself to her. It is actually in my hands as to what I will accept, what I am prepared to work through and what I'm prepared to let my children be exposed to as a parent.

If i see my wife genuinely seeing this for what it is, genuinely being honest, and genuinely commit to working through her own traumas (which o havemt discussed her yet) and genuinely commit to the next version of our marriage, i will equally commit to that.

As soon as I get the sense that none of that is there, I will call it immediately.

I feel much calmer today.

I feel like i have options.

I feel can exist without her.

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

Praeteritus_braccas — Sun, 09 Aug 2020 07:27:46 GMT

I can't believe what has happened today.

She is there talking to me when she finally gets out of bed at 10.30, telling me about her 2 dreams about being sexually assaulted last night

We unpack that based on her own narcissist mothers needs and her own sexual abuse which has gone without being raised, treated in any way. She has had to hide it to protect her mother's feelings for over 30 years.

Then tells me sheafter that she tells me she had another sexual assault dream straight afterwards.

..?..

Then immediately proceeds to talk to me about American literature and she couldn't believe I had read the play that she is reading, as she is in fact more well read than I am, well some areas anyway. We end up discussing the various literature we have both read.

All these conversations are started by her, I know they are gap fillers. A facade.

She Tells me she went to sleep last night at a decent time, but was up to 2am again, thinks that i have no idea.
She is not able to function. Won't take her sleep meds at night so she can get to sleep. She Is off having a nap right now (3-5pm)...

I don't know if I can hold out revealing i know about about the ongoing affair for another 3 weeks until the couples counselling.

Late in the day appears to be my weakest..

Sorry, I'm just.... venting I guess

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

ecomama — Sun, 09 Aug 2020 08:14:12 GMT

Vent away, it's your thread and you can pour anything out in it as long as it's within the guidelines.

How I see it (from an online distance lol) is that you are now deceiving W.
You are not being honest about what you know, that Ws affair is still going on.

I've no idea to what purpose but it's your "marriage" so it's your call... myself being observant of the core of marriage vows as fidelity... I consider you're no longer married anyway IMO.

But the saying "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" comes to mind.
All of Ws behaviours are referenced in italics above... atm she is rug-sweeping. But so are you.

Are you afraid to tell W that you know the affair is continuing and you KNOW about it?

I'm finding it hard to follow but then again here, it's not my marriage lol.

From my observations of mine and other marriages involving a cheating spouse, the ONLY way W will come out of the affair fog is for you to lodge in Mediation. Tbh I doubt W will come out of the fog even then.

I guess in a way YOU are in the marriage fog and W is in the affair fog.
Yes I agree, a facade, this would be a difficult time for you to keep up the facade.
W seems to have zero issue with same.

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

Praeteritus_braccas — Sun, 09 Aug 2020 09:49:14 GMT

Hi EM,

Thank you for the candid advice. Please for a moment don't think I'm not taking it on board. you raise a good point that I am deceiving her by not revealing that I know what's really going on. This hurts me at my soul, I always try to be an genuine person as best I can. So for me to have to partake in this charade does not suit with me all.

I'm trying to follow the advice of all the objective people around me. but as I said I don't want to make a decision rashly and look back later and go F. I wish I did that differently. Kids are on the line here.

Ill outline my reasons why.

Speaking to a family lawyer on Friday, she advised that my goal in order to protect my parenting rights as the primary carer is to document everything in doing for the children. Because my wife is so exhausted (genuinely from health conditions) and from her middle of the night and all day online fantasy romance, I've been doing those roles anyway, so the longer I perform those roles, the better placed I am when it comes to determining the primary carer role.Ive already got the evidence of the affair, (ongoing) so that is there.
At the moment, I don't have a sound and respectful way to bring this up without it just falling apart and going bad. I'm seeing my psychologist on Tuesday to discuss whether I raise it now, and how, what framework should I use. I want to be calm, considered and show her that I am strong without her.
W is so convinced of her being manipulated by me, that she was pushed to have this affair, that me raising it without objective and independent support, will just be seen through the negative / toxic glasses she has on. Flushing it out in counselling means that our counsellor, who can be objective can ask the hard questions, can be the one to get to the truth. It's not this fiction of her husband trying to manipulate her further than she already thinks she is.
I would have raised it already, except that we just cannot get a couples session until the end of the month.
If the psychologist thinks it's better to raise it this week, and I get a framework to do it, I will. I will also be prepared with legal advice.

I know these probably seems clean cut looking in from the outside, but my wife is convinced of who she thinks I am, of the reasons she is saying she can't talk to me. It's important, for me, that I demonstrate genuinely that it's not the case.

W is still a person, and despite her actions, I can still be respectful and considered.

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

Praeteritus_braccas — Mon, 10 Aug 2020 12:14:06 GMT

Confronted W today. I couldnt wait a y longer. Also was a risk as I couldn't sleep last night at all and decided it was time.

6 hour long chat while the kids were at school.

She admitted to the affair immediately. I admitted I had seen all the messages including this mornings, including his manipulaton from him saying he was thinking of suicide if she pulled away from him. (professional Help was recommended to this guy in case it was actaully true for the record)

In short, Essentially I explained that I wont compete with online BF. That if she needed this in her life, she had to leave, she couldn't have me and the kids. That if this dalliance was something that was more important then she was free to leave. Given the choice of him or the kids she decided immediately it had to end.

In short, she ended the online affair and removed herself from that whole community, blocked the guy on all platforms, email and phone. He got angry and at face value told him it over forever.

Long story short is that she will committ to couples counselling,still weeks away.

Im not holding out hopes for it to work, but hopefully with her now getting some sleep and rest, she can start to function as a human again.

Marriage, Gaslighting, conflict avoidance, Shame dumping and projection

Praeteritus_braccas — Wed, 12 Aug 2020 00:51:17 GMT

Hi All,

I am going to move this thread into the family section.

Thanks again to EM and Tony WN for all your input.

Thanks

P77