topic Disowning a family member in Relationship and family issues

Disowning a family member

white knight — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 01:51:19 GMT

This is by far the most difficult thread I've ever written. Finally after using my heart as my guide all my life, my head is taking over in order to save myself from serious longer term harm.

And that's the reason for this thread- limiting grief and moving forward.

Blood is an attachment that cant be described. As children our parents are our life, our security, our nurturing. We never expect to disown them. Our own children is what we created, we protect, we feed, we devote...we never expect to disown them.

How far do you proceed with a family member when the relationship is unworkable? If it is unworkable how long do you endure any toxicity before you enter a self protection/preservation mode? Forever? Some of us presume so. Or we live in hope that it will work out one day.

An example-

My first wife used silence as a very effective hurtful weapon. It isn't easy describing the feeling of being ineffective with combatting it. I divorced her in 1996. Only recently did I stumble on the reason why it is used as a weapon and what you can do about it.

Google

Silent Treatment: Preferred Weapon of People with Narcissism

So, one of my daughters is 26yo and since she was 14yo she has showed strong traits of this. She lived with her mother and I had her for visitations every second weekend and holidays. Obviously her mother had a strong influence on her and that has been on display every time her and I have communication. Every two years or so my daughter re-enters my life to create havoc. At first its fine, we talk (only on Facebook messenger as that gives her control to block me if she so desires) then after a couple of weeks of great communication - she is gone! no contact. Why?

Control. My daughter is in control of when she communicates. She is well aware of the hurt she inflicts.

Recently I developed that attitude, now for the hard bit- getting on with my life with people that love and adore me.

PS I recently read the following phrases-

Not every time losing a person in your life - is a loss
I believe that Narcissists deserve our compassion, but compassion does not involve giving them permission to hurt other people or overlooking any damage that they do.” “I am a recovering narcissist. I thought narcissism was about self-love till someone told me there is a flip side to it.
I'm not weak, I was trusting.
I'm not giving up, I'm healing.
There is life after narcissistic abuse, Hold On!

TonyWK

Disowning a family member

Camellias — Fri, 07 Jun 2019 03:24:16 GMT

Dear TonyWK

That was very brave of you to write this and share so much of your experience with others, so that it may benefit them. As well as yourself, I just wanted to compliment you on your courage.

So many things you have written have hit home hard for me, such as

"how long do you endure any toxicity before you enter a self protection/preservation mode? Forever? Some of us presume so. Or we live in hope that it will work out one day." and " then after a couple of weeks of great communication - she is gone! no contact. Why? Control. My daughter is in control of when she communicates. She is well aware of the hurt she inflicts." I am going through this, except ofcourse it is not my daughter.

The more I read about narcassists the more I realise what a trap i have sunk into. I had no idea what a narcassist was until further research on the net and then suddenly realising that it is indeed abuse I am enduring. How I feel so weak, but like the phrases you have shared, I was just trusting.

On the flip side, can I ask your thoughts on this. I am a quiet person by nature. The lady I was seeing for a year was in a long marriage where her exhusband was a evil narc, often using silence as a weapon. I have tried to convince her for over a year i was not ignoring her, forcing myself to speak more then i normally would to reassure her that my nature is quiet. even though I tried to endlessly assure her I was not ignoring her, being silent towards her etc, to this day she associates my quiet nature to her exhusbands narc/silent treatment. I had to talk more, be more social then I am comfortable with. I guess you could say she is used to her friends talking non stop. Thats just not me.

Now I am holding onto hope that I never place myself in this position again. I dont want to be alone, it means trusting someone all over again.

I truly hope you do have people who love and adore you, to carry you through this, it cannot be easy. I note you mentioned it was the most difficult thread you have written.

Best wishes

Camellias

Disowning a family member

clownartist — Sat, 08 Jun 2019 09:03:12 GMT

Dear WK ,Y

Disowning a family member

clownartist — Sat, 08 Jun 2019 09:41:30 GMT

Hi WK.I dont think you know how helpful your posts are .You have helped me before with advice .I have recently had property settlement and have struggled with seeing my daughter for the exact same reasons.Control my daughter is in control when she communicates.As Ustinov said Parents are the bones children cut their teeth on,It is killing me the lack of contact but I think contact will be more damaging.We communicate online on her terms,and as with you I am terrified of her traits ie ex.Ii is so sad she treats me like I am a failure and damaged.I know I have issues but I have tried my best and she has had a good chilhood.Yet every night I go to bed feeling guilty about me being a crap dad.I am terrified of rejection and criticism and feel it is easier to practice avoidance .Some friends are extremely critical of my avoidance .It been tough will they change ?CK

Disowning a family member

GrandpaSpec — Sat, 08 Jun 2019 10:39:35 GMT

This post touches home, but from a different point of view for myself, my children are young and we try to keep communication open with them but knowing one day, this could be a situation I face.

I have unfortunately been the child where I ceased communication, with my mum several times, with my dad once.

My dad also suffers mental health issues and I now am more understanding of what happened the day we stopped talking. We had an altercation relating to my children where we ended up physically and mentally harming each other. I chose at that point, to walk away and have no more communication with him. Over about 2-3 years, I would get an email, asking how myself and my family were, but i chose not to reply, I got an invitation to his wedding, but chose to ignore it. At the time, I was protecting my family from what I saw as "a monster" although the events of the day were wrong, I see how i reacted was hurtful towards him also. We have been speaking for almost a year again now and things are better than ever, supporting each other through our problems.

My mum is a different story, she plays innocent to the family, convinces herself and others around her that I need to "get over it". I can't count the number of times I have been told by members of that side of the family to "just forgive her" however I have, many times, to have it happen again and again.

I guess it is hard as you want those lines of communication, there are your blood, your family. However hard it is, sometimes it is easier to just let go rather than repeat the pain. But again, I can understand the fatherly side wants to help your children all you can.

Would she be open to a mediation session with a therapist to maybe get some insight into your feelings and maybe help you understand if something has happened to put her in this position other than your ex's guidance?

Disowning a family member

white knight — Sat, 08 Jun 2019 12:32:20 GMT

Hi Camellias

Thankyou for your response.

Re: On the flip side, can I ask your thoughts on this. I am a quiet person by nature. The lady I was seeing for a year was in a long marriage where her exhusband was a evil narc, often using silence as a weapon. I have tried to convince her for over a year i was not ignoring her, forcing myself to speak more then i normally would to reassure her that my nature is quiet. even though I tried to endlessly assure her I was not ignoring her, being silent towards her etc, to this day she associates my quiet nature to her exhusbands narc/silent treatment. I had to talk more, be more social then I am comfortable with. I guess you could say she is used to her friends talking non stop. Thats just not me"

It is very common for a partner that has been abused to continue with that fear with a new partner or friend, even work colleagues.

This scarring deserves counseling really but it is so eide spread. The answer imo comes from meeting each other half way. Eg if she thinks you are quiet because you are upset with her, a code word can be asked like "how's teddy" to which you reply "great dolly". That is her asking if you are upset and its you telling her you are not and you are just quiet.

Her insecurities are met and you havent gone too far out of your quiet comfort zone.

You can come up with your own words and after a while it will come natural. But insecure people that are scarred need extra reassurance.

TonyWK

Disowning a family member

white knight — Sat, 08 Jun 2019 12:49:00 GMT

Hi again CA

Guilt is bad. Ive had it all my life from my mother over criticising me and manipulation

I wrote this thread from that. Use google

Beyondblue Topic guilt the tormentor

Also, as a human your best should always be good enough. If it isnt then others expectations are too high and often there is alternative reasons.

Separation times between children and parents are tough. We can never feel we can fill that hole in our hearts. So we have to accept that the hole will remain and sometimes they change for the better. With my daughter it is highly unlikely she will change. Narcissists rarely if ever change along with sufferers if extreme BPD. But if they seek help we dhould always support them.

my ex wife never said sorry for anything in 11 years. My daughter the same. They know what they do is cruel but their lust for control is paramount.

Fill the rest of your heart with love and care. Fill it with an active life. I mean, my little dog ditting on my lap right now provides me with more love than my daughter has in 15 years.

Perspective is a good thing to exercise.

TonyWK

Disowning a family member

white knight — Sat, 08 Jun 2019 13:03:48 GMT

Hi, grandpa

No, she wont go to counseling. The problem with narcissists and some BPD people they eont get help and if they do they only last a few weeks before leaving on the basis the counselor nereds the help not them.

It's good you got back with your dad. That action of yours to stay away and ignore contact might be an act of narcissism but unlikely. We can all feel we need to break away. With a narcissist its a natural game for them. Quite different

Family members of your mother putting pressure on you to forgive- I had that also. I have a saying "only the child of my mother knows what its like to be her child " and "I dont interfere with your relationship with your mother, so let it be".

Your relationship with other people is your choices and decisions.

Sometimes we have let people into our lives without the boundaries needed to protect ourselves.

Google

Beyondblue Topic fortress of survival

Beyondblue Topic fortress of survival part 2

Queen witch hermit waif

Thanks for responding

TonyWK

Disowning a family member

clownartist — Sat, 08 Jun 2019 23:55:13 GMT

Hi WK ,wise words as usual Your comments that your ex never saying sorry touched a nerve,my daughter and ex is of course similar,yet I am constantly apologising,gets back to the guilt trip.I forever live in hope that things will improve.My daughter may accept counselling ,I dont know .I think it is horrible the situations we create .We are all going to die,all of us .What a circus it should make us love each other during the time we are here CK

Disowning a family member

white knight — Sun, 09 Jun 2019 08:00:24 GMT

Hi CA

The more I read about narcissism the more I realise how common it is.

Of course it could be confused with arrogance to, even bad attitude.

A narc likes to elevate themselves over you- so you remain below them. Saying sorry, any concession, in their eyes raises you to be equal which is not their objective, robbing them of power.

Self preservation is our responsibility. We are not responsible for how our children turn out if all the basics of upbringing have been introduced but a narcissist child will remind you of what you did wrong rather than love you for the good things you did.

With that ongoing it wears you down. The parental dedication tells you to hang in there. "It not matter if she was in jail for a heinous crime she is still my daughter"...but, that dedication level will harm you. That dedication is what they play with....they know you are hurting, empathy is non existent. The phone wont ever ring, they wait for us to contact because their narcissism is stronger than our heart. Ringing you means they need you

Well I have a choice, I choose sanity and the company of people that will enhance my life.

TonyWK

Disowning a family member

Camellias — Sun, 09 Jun 2019 12:54:38 GMT

Dear TonyWK

Again, it hits home hard seeing much of what you write, to be true for me

” That dedication is what they play with....they know you are hurting, empathy is non existent. The phone wont ever ring, they wait for us to contact because their narcissism is stronger than our heart. Ringing you means they need you. “....

this explains so much in my predicament...why she never contacts, the weapon of silence, swiping away my calls with excuses, never calling me in the ‘ me time’ phases....

it sucks. It hurts. And makes me feel like a complete idiot. Why do we endure this....why does it feel like my world will never be happy again. I don’t choose loneliness, I choose companionship. But it doesn’t seem possible.

🌺

Disowning a family member

clownartist — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 00:04:25 GMT

WK concur with Camellia took the words right out of my mouth as Meatloaf would say.I cant believe you summed it up so well .I am sorry you are going thru this Camellias .I know what its like it makes you feel like a complete loser.Whenever I did see her it was always on her terms,like I only have an hour etc .Ii used to just crush me ,but I cruelly think that was the intention,same with no phone calls .I live in hope .Thanks again WK for your insight ,I am not alone CK

Disowning a family member

white knight — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 01:13:57 GMT

Hi CA & C

How do we move on? It is a question of multiple answers.

The answers are no different than grief as thats what it is, a loss.

I stumbled on one remedy- distraction. Packing your life with activities does work.

Unless you are say, building a house and working 60 hours a week in your job, which I did (leaving me exhausted daily) you cant distract yourself enough. Those periods where you reflect returns.

Permit yourself to carry out the grief process. Crying, sleep etc then rebound. My problem during that process would see me weaken and try to contact my daughter...even say sorry though I did no wrong. That action is sadly, living a lie. We are selling out our dignity for hope. It is exactly what the narcissist wants. And the apology isnt right!

The master of silence will maintain that at all costs. I can mention to my daughter anything (I'm finished with us. Silence will end our relationship etc) still no return message. My daughter will only use Facebook messaging in a site left only for me. She is then able to block me. She has control.

How is this narcissism seen in society? Well I asked a question on an international site about "how do you disown a narcissist? " You get many answers like "what did you do to her", "you are a parent forever" and so on. The level of empathy is low. However one answer was "contact her, tell her it wont work but if she gets therapy you'd reconsider". That feels like emotional blackmail to me but it might be needed. The trouble is, to say that, is again seeing you as the instigator of contact....what they thrive on.

I'm left with no contact. ..mimicking exactly what she does when such action doesnt come natural and therefore guilt floods in.

The only effective action is convincing yourself her action of silence is evil, that she doesn't love me because she shows no empathy, that it is all a game to her and I deserve better.

I once told her "I spent 11 years married to your mother that abused me with silence and contempt. I divorced her, lost my full time parenthood, home and my dog. If you treat me the same what hope have we got"?. She didnt reply...."Do you want to respond to that" I asked. She said "what do you want me to say". "Anything" I said. "I just did" she said. "No, you just asked a short question "what do you want me to say" I said.

She went quiet.

TonyWK

Disowning a family member

clownartist — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 01:57:41 GMT

Hi WK, again you nail it,I copped exactly the same from some friends etc said .Your are the parent grow up and what did you did you do to her?I wrote a story about our family and my ex .Ii wasnt nasty just the truth.I stupidly sent it to my daughter,hindsight amazing.Well did I cop a barrage of abuse onlt time I get a response interesting.Only one good friend supported me saying she should respect you and you tell it as it is and that you deserve better.I lost the same fulltime parenthood ,home,job and dog.I loved your question if you treat me the same as the ex what hope do we have? Wow what insight and she went quiet Amazing CK

Disowning a family member

Camellias — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 04:24:01 GMT

Hi CK

Pleasure to meet you. You are definitely not alone. It’s like we are sitting in the same boat, with the same tide of emotions coming in and we are looking at each other holding on for dear life.

Always on her terms, and she knows it hurts, especially with children involved, it hurts more. Because she is thinking only of herself, not me, not the kids, not even the animals I’ve gotten attached too v/verse over a year.

Bread crumbs mate, after five days I got a phone call today, took every ounce of my strength to answer it. Not once did she say she missed me, loved me or needed me. The laughter from her end was not from me but speaking about her friends. I live in hope that she speaks kindly of me to her friends, that I make her laugh, that she actually wants to see me.... I guess it’s false hope.

🌺

Disowning a family member

white knight — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 06:35:08 GMT

Great conversation

Is revenge on any level justified if poorly treated by a narcissist?

Yes, to a degree. See, we on the receiving end are talkers, communicators and givers. We reach out and they dont and that downloads to different levels of hurt.

So, the question is- how can we that are ill treated equalise the debate? Why shouldnt they listen to the truth? Why not tell them they risk losing you as a friend/father/child/spouse of theirs due to their narcassistic abuse by silence? Why not send them a link to such explainations of abuse? Why not make them accountable after all it is an illness.

If we do that we get it off our chest immediately and that can help us move on but following that action if we continue with the allegations it loses its impact. Better to say "I've told you, its now up to you". We dont have to tell them how to get help, if they are flabbergasted by their behaviour being a mental illness the ball is in their court.

If you continue to argue the point (I have in the past) several allegations can be interpreted as gaslighting. It gets complex and you wont achieve anything.

My ex and I owned a jack russell. When I left her I lived in a caravan park, dogs not allowed. She wanted to keep the dog for our kids so I relented. For 2 year after, I patted the dog when I dropped off our kids. That involved walking 3 metres onto her property. She came out and told me to no longer pat the dog. Shattered is an understatement. My reply-"ok, we all have choices whether to be cruel or not". She didnt answer that, of course.

I might mention that my older daughter came to live with me at 12yo and the treatment she received from her mother and more so her sister has left her rejecting them forever in her life. She is 30yo now, has serious bipolar, depression, ptsd issue and is hospitalised as we speak. She is adamant she doesnt want them in her life. She feel sad watching me forgive my narcissist daughter only for me to get hurt again and again.

I hope this time I can cease to interact with my youngest or the hurt will continue.

So, we can tell it as it is but less is more and keep a lid on our ramblings and get on with our wonderful lives.

Give the narcissists the silence they crave.

TonyWK

Disowning a family member

clownartist — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 06:36:51 GMT

Hi Camellias

Pleasure to meet you too.This forum does make you feel you are not alone.I know all about crumbs,I get the occasional text.She did once tell me she loved me,which I found difficult?I had the same all about her friends.I believe it is a sense of entitlement that our kids have these days.Its all about them ,it is a vicious circle were you become defensive and feel offended.Its bloody hard they treat you like you are only the father who is absent .I live in hope as well .Does absence make the heart grow fonder?CK

Disowning a family member

Camellias — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 06:57:50 GMT

Hi CK

For me personally, absence doesn’t make the heart grow fonder. For her, it seems too. She seems happier for whatever reasons the longer we are apart, and like we have agreed here, she enjoys the control of silence....

How did you feel when she told you she loved you? If you haven’t heard it often then I can understand why that maybe hard to grasp.

From my end I heard it often, so the silence is hard as I don’t hear it anymore, no touch, no smile, no love just distance....

As WK said so wisely ,

“ we on the receiving end are talkers, communicators and givers. We reach out and they dont and that downloads to different levels of hurt“”

That is so me, I give my all, communicate, try to always talk but I get walls, put downs, blame and always the ‘ it shouldn’t be this hard’ as in, Me. Any form of communication is too difficult for her.

She has often told me, upon my trying to communicate, that I am gaslighting... now i has to look this word up, new to me. She seems to have all the answers to everything, before I can even think.

Do you have any close friends you can speak with daily or check in on you?

I rely very much on the time/kindness of good souls here on BB.

What was the best part of your day CK? Mine was feeding some birds down by the water.

🌺

Disowning a family member

clownartist — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 07:30:50 GMT

Hi WK,

Oh my god these stories are scary .I had a Jack russell for 18 years she came to work most days with me .MY ex took the children overseas for a month .I remained to look after the property,the dog disappeared for days .I was devastated ,I eventually found her dead it sent me into a spiral of mourning .I spoke to my ex on the phone and her response was she was old and not spoil the childrens holiday.I got off the phone and almost had a breakdown.Thats when I realised who I was dealing with someone with no empathy. But again i put my head in the sand we got another dog after a number of years she left leaving the dog with me because she couldnt take it.I spent 4 years with dog until property settlement .I had to give the dog to my ex in a house now and have seen my dog for 6 months . It might sound pathetic but I am not allowed to see the dog now .They know what you love and want to inflict the most pain CK

Disowning a family member

Camellias — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 07:37:14 GMT

Dear CK

My sincere thoughts are with you regarding the loss of your precious friend of 18years - JRs are such characters to have as companions.

And your 4yr old furry friend- companion, did she stipulate that the dog was in the settlement? It doesn’t even seem that she cares about your dog, but is just keeping it to hurt you and I’m sorry if this is true. Your canine friend would be missing you too.

I am thinking of you, I hope you somehow can rescue or find another suitable canine friend...

🌺