topic ABUSE and its grey boundaries in Relationship and family issues

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

white knight — Thu, 02 Jan 2020 02:47:25 GMT

What is abuse? Well, everyone has an interpretation of where nastiness enters the abuse arena. The law can define abuse as assault but I've never seen a person charged with manipulation which, like many ways of being abused can be traumatic for the victim. So if manipulation, emotional blackmail, silence used as a weapon or withholding children from the other parent is not illegal - is it abuse. It sure is! But not to everyone hence the title of this topic.

For 10 years in a previous relationship my then partner when drunk would, well it was like a switch, get angry then slap my face. I took it "like a man should" I thought, even mentioned it to my GP and he replied "but you're a big boy you can take it". What I didnt consider was what MY boundaries were and that they mattered. My boundaries were that I detest any violence at all be it mental or physical. My one time previous occupation of prison officer had a large bearing on that but my dad also held the same attitude. So why did I tolerate it? Because she was a woman half my weight and the old fashioned belief that men can be punching bags as part of our duties. Wrong!

In violent relationships we are often inflicted by the guilt factor, when our partners twist things around and ignore what we actually believe is wrong. In my case my partner the next morning would say "I slapped you because you weren't listening to me" or "you deserved it because you aren't responsive to my needs and besides I drank a lot because of your bipolar". When I finally moved out I was riddled with guilt that those words echoed in my mind. I had to rebuild my confidence that abuse was what I believed it was, not what the perpetrator believed it wasn't.

We all have blurred lines of what violence is. As humans we have to accept that. But basic right from wrong also includes levels of disrespect that is universally defined.

If you believe you were abused then draw the line in the sand and tell the person of your limits then stand by them. It matters not what any other person in the world believes, it is your boundaries that matter after all, the person inflicting the violence is dealing with you not anyone else.

Finally, if the abuse continues you need to save yourself from it and leave. It sounds daunting but will also be a relief. Then rebuild your life by filling it with hobbies, sports and distractions. A short time later you should, when reflecting back, realise you made the correct decision to save yourself from abuse

TonyWK

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

Betternow — Thu, 02 Jan 2020 07:40:19 GMT

Thank you for that clarity Tony. I found it interesting. The statistics say that the majority of physical abuse is perpetuated by men on women and I have no reason to doubt it.

On the other hand, most experts thing female on male violence is grossly under reported, probably for the reasons you alluded to in your essay.

I hope your wise words help both men and women suffering domestic violence.

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

romantic_thi3f — Fri, 03 Jan 2020 00:05:40 GMT

Hi TonyWK,

Thank you for your post - you always come up with interesting things to share on these forums!

Initially when I read the title I was thinking, 'how on earth does abuse have grey boundaries??' but what you said makes total sense. We are all raised differently and believe that some behaviour is okay and other behaviour is not okay - even if it is classified as abuse.

Social abuse might be a classic example, in which the abuser limits the person who they can socialise with. People might see that though as 'just being naturally protective'. I was though shocked at what your GP said and yet it disappoints me so much - both men and women should never have to put up with it. I'm female but yet I know there is still so much stigma still around men being abused by females.

Without jumping on a soapbox, I think that us as a society need to better understand what is actually abuse. I never knew that gaslighting was a thing until I read about it - even intimidation and emotional/psychological abuse. As a kid, I only thought abuse was physical, and now I know how complex and layered it is.

Thanks again for starting this conversation. I think the more that we can talk about it the better things can be.

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

white knight — Fri, 03 Jan 2020 06:15:27 GMT

Hi RT,

Valued comments. This one " I never knew that gaslighting was a thing until I read about it - even intimidation and emotional/psychological abuse. As a kid, I only thought abuse was physical, and now I know how complex and layered it is." struck me as interesting.

I would say I was "gaslighted" by my mother but many aspects of her behaviour was controlling and in particular mirrored all four traits of the characters of this medical condition-

https://theestablishment.co/witch-queen-mom-fairy-tale-lessons-for-surviving-borderline-parents-869527f7cccf/index.html

That is the Queen, witch, hermit and waif as concluded by Dr Christine Lawson. Funny about it being abuse because apart from when my mother grabbed my shirt and ripped it her behaviours were never illegal, yet it was abuse. Ruining my first wedding by causing uproar, jealousy acts and manipulation....all legal. Than in such situations like my second wedding approaching in 2011 she threatened it all again 25 years later. That provoked me to take out a court order to ensure my wedding went ahead unhindered. Then of course in many eye I was the culprit.

So that is just one example of psychological abuse and life destroying behaviour that one has to deal with. Once I believed the abuse was indeed abuse (and believe me, totally unprovoked), I could walk tall that I did what was required.

But you are right psychological abuse can be so deeply ingrained that it lives forever. My sister and I have often said "after out mother passes away she will haunt us". The scars are that deep.

TonyWK

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

blondguy — Fri, 03 Jan 2020 11:47:30 GMT

Hi TonyWK

Another excellent topic as abuse is a 'grey area' for sure....I didnt have any boundaries at the time when I was punched in the back of my head and then had a 3 kilo vase thrown at me a few weeks later than ended up with me in the ER. The physical assaults and hospitalization occurred after a basic verbal disagreement when my ex 'exceeded' her second glass of wine....she always became violent....and I was a dill and didnt challenge her violent and abusive behavior when I was with her..Probably because we had a new baby asleep in her cot at the time...

(Excuse me TonyWK for a moment)....Betternow....The 'statistics' you mention are unhelpful to people that have suffered abuse of any description....I respect your point of view yet I dont subscribe to your interpretation of the OP's thread topic by making it a 'gender' based issue

Paul

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

white knight — Fri, 03 Jan 2020 12:32:45 GMT

Hi Betternow

Yes, there was no gender selection on my first post. I'm a male hence my account of my experience of abuse is female to male.

TonyWK

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

Deckt — Sun, 26 Jan 2020 09:17:02 GMT

Hi TonyWK,

I agree with the substance of your post. I have a bit of a problem with abuse being what you believe it is. The reason for this is that my current partner thinks that by me picking up my children from their mother's house, I am abusing her, because she doesn't want me to do it, and I should "take her thoughts into consideration and not do things I don't like". She also doesn't like my kids' mother coming to my house to pick them up, as this is, in her mind, inappropriate. I should add that at her specific request (demand?) I do not enter my ex's house, nor does she enter mine.

I'm not trying to be contentious, I would genuinely like opinions on this.

Thanks.

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

Juliet_84 — Sun, 26 Jan 2020 11:49:29 GMT

Hi blond guy,

As someone who has been in an abusive relationship, I take exception to your assertion that the ‘statistics’ mentioned by BetterNow were not helpful. I’m not sure why ‘statistics’ was in quotes as if untrue as it is well recognized that domestic violence is overwhelmingly perpetrated on women by men. This isn’t to say that men can’t also experience domestic violence at the hands of women, as Tony attested to they can and it is also abhorrent. But not acknowledging the overwhelming statistics is minimizing the experience of a large percentage of the population. The sheer number of females murdered by their partners in recent times also speaks to this point.

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

white knight — Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:12:01 GMT

Hi Deckt,

Taking your post only as my gauge of judgment I see it like this-

Trust is part, a huge part of any successful and harmonic relationship. If your partner has a problem with that then you have a wider issue that needs to be sorted out with counseling because this trust issue will rare its ugly head in other ways down the track.

If it is either jealousy, possessiveness or some belief she has developed in her mind from some source (eg childhood) then that is also a problem but maybe fixable together.

As a parent that tried for 14 years to get along with my ex wife without success purely for the childrens sake, when ever I did stop to speak to her at her gate our kids ran around us with glee and laughter. They saw, or at least believed, we were talking and therefore happy.

My problem I have with your situation is twofold

That to restrict you from entering your ex's home is putting boundaries upon you when it is and should be, your decision as part of your personal freedom to decide. This freedom is personal freedom not a couples decision. Relationships do indeed have variations of boundaries between each others interactions with others to a point. Eg if your ex has been trying to reunite with you and your partner knew this and you returned to tell her you entered her home. Boom! expect conflict. But in a permanently separated marriage if your ex wife asked you in for a cuppa and discussed your childrens education- that should be your decision and in my view wild horses wouldnt stop me from making that decision in the interests of our children and harmony.
The reverse is not so clean cut. Your partner and you share a house, if your partners request is for you to not allow your ex wife into your home I would respect that decision. It would seem like an invasion of her privacy. It is though unfair as in essence we should all try to get along with our ex's as acquaintances and that is enhanced when we need to swap the children around for special events etc. But dropping them off should be perfectly allowable.

I would not endorse her word "abuse" when you are not doing an action that your partner is demanding and you are, or want to, exercise your right to make your own decisions. If anything manipulation and restriction of rights and freedom is more towards that description than refusing her demands.

A partner should never get between the kids and the parent and also any other action that promotes happiness for the children. They come first.

TonyWK

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

blondguy — Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:24:28 GMT

Hello Juliet_84 Im sorry for hijacking your thread topic TonyWK

I was only expressing my own opinion as per my own personal experience. Just from my own understanding gender statistics are not relevant to the thread topic as the OP mentioned

I am sorry that you have been in an abusive relationship. I hope you can exercise the same empathy to others irrespective of their gender

my kind thoughts

Paul

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

Juliet_84 — Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:09:12 GMT

Hi Paul,

Of course, I wouldn’t wish abuse on anyone and don’t think that is the price that anyone should have to pay for loving someone. It’s a complex topic and likely one that is experienced differently depending on gender - for women, there is the overwhelming fear of having someone who likely weighs almost twice as much as you, and who you are taught is there to protect you, fail you and intimidate you and act as if they hate you. And for males, I expect there is less of the fear/intimidation (although I may be wrong) but the frustration and psychological effects associated with your partner behaving that way towards you. I don’t wish to minimize either, but feel that we do minimize one if we ignore the facts. For these reasons, I do think gender is important for these reasons but I think that abuse from both sides should be understood more completely.

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

white knight — Thu, 30 Jan 2020 08:13:57 GMT

Hi Juliet,

I am a broad shouldered 130+ kg guy, ex prison officer, bouncer and investigator, yet I’m frightened by some women.

Let me say that the fear you felt with a double the size violent man is known to me from being attacked several times over the years. The fear I’ve got stems however from abuse by my mother for the first 55 years if my life through intimidation, emotional blackmail and other things.

This is why “abuse” is what the victim feels, not what other people, in particular the abuser, interprets as abuse. I’m sure for example my mother does not believe she abused us kids but we are the recipients of it, not her.

A good example is- my mother would demand my beautiful dad (dec) to side with her in all issues. If any of us kids found her intolerable, she knew we also lost our father. That sadness was emotionally crippling.

Just some examples of what men can go through, and I agree, we need to try and understand all cases individually.

TonyWK

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

Juliet_84 — Thu, 30 Jan 2020 14:40:11 GMT

Hi Tony,

I agree, and it seems as though you suffered a similar family dynamic with your mother as I did with mine unfortunately. There’s obviously something that we recognize as familiar and mistake for love (well I know I do at least, but am working on it). I also had a father who never stood up for us, and instead would avoid our eyes as he sided with whatever messed up thing, real or imagined, she believed that we had committed. So I swore that I would never find someone passive who wouldn’t stand up for me, and so I found an angry volatile man who I thought could protect me and instead ended up with my mother.
However, I would say that as a broad shouldered 130+kg guy, you stand more of a fighting chance than a 55kg woman who is very slight of build. That’s not to discount the fear that you feel, only to not have my experience discounted. I don’t agree with men fighting men, it’s always sickened me, but something about a man fighting a female seems particularly grotesque to me, it’s not a fair fight, not even close. But there is something soul-destroying that we all feel when subjected to abuse at the hands of a supposed love one. Obviously an emotional topic for us all.

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

white knight — Fri, 31 Jan 2020 05:17:43 GMT

Wonderful post Juliet.

Many years ago I described the control my mother had on us kids. He suggested I research narcissism which I did. I stumbled on this-

A book titled “walking on eggshells “ by Dr Christine Lawson.

Rather than read the book I googled-

queen witch hermit waif

Its interesting reading

TonyWK

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

Deckt — Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:19:37 GMT

Hey Tony,

Those are two different books.

Understanding the Borderline Mother is by Lawson.

Stop walking on eggshells by Mason and Kreger.

The latter is a good read, I can't speak for the former.

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

white knight — Fri, 31 Jan 2020 10:52:19 GMT

Thanks Juliet

Insightful all this.

TonyWK

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

white knight — Wed, 15 Dec 2021 20:46:03 GMT

Hi everyone,

With Xmas nearly here, let's remind ourselves that abuse should not be tolerated by anyone and to anyone.

Do you desire to discuss abuse?

TonyWK

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

quirkywords — Thu, 16 Dec 2021 00:31:42 GMT

Wow Tony just read all the past posts from 2020, very interesting and some difference opinion which is health.

I agree everyone has a different definition and understanding of abuse. I had a friend years ago who everyone thought her husband was cheating , controlling and demeaning. Her friends and family kept telling her to leave but she didnt and in the end cut off both her family and friends. She said no one knew what he had been through and she did and she found him caring.

So if the person does not see it as abuse is it abuse?

The other thing does the severity and length of time of the behaviour mean it is more likely to be seen as abuse.

I know a man whose wife controlled all the money, made all the decisions, would sulk for hours if he said anything to disagree with her, and much more. He never complains , is that abuse?

Once again a great thread and worth reviving.

ABUSE and its grey boundaries

white knight — Thu, 16 Dec 2021 04:00:52 GMT

Hi Quirky

Re: "I know a man whose wife controlled all the money, made all the decisions, would sulk for hours if he said anything to disagree with her, and much more. He never complains , is that abuse?"

That is carbon copy of my last relationship. Semi narcissism can fly under the radar for many years. As I'd had previous history of a spender I allowed her to hold the purse string. Model airplanes was my then hobby and when one crashed it costed about $100 to repair/replace. She said "how much has it cost us for the last 7 years for your hobby?" $11,000 I replied. "Are you proud of that"? She delved. "Well I said...better than $35,000 in cigarettes" (and I had radio and engines as collateral.

After that conflict I realised I was being abused. Such "control" was unreasonable as I earned 3 times her salary, didn't have any obsessions nor addictions and we were financially sound. In this case "abuse" is the attempted removal of a partners rights deemed on fairness providing funds weren't being sacrificed for bills.

Turning it over had I asked her initially "are you proud of spending $35,000 over 7 years on cigs"? Well, I would never do that because it's an addiction, I'd rely on encouragement.

Was I abused or was I too sensitive? We know 20% of all people come under the umbrella of HSP, highly sensitive people and I'm one. Is it unreasonable of me to stigmatise her as abusive when I'm HSP? I think in this case she is closer to unreasonable and over controlling of finances the latter that I foolishly gave away my input. It would be too reactive for me to call her abusive.

"The other thing does the severity and length of time of the behaviour mean it is more likely to be seen as abuse."

I think it eventually ends up as abuse as control often has a steady incline. Like, familiarity breeds contempt.

As for your friend that others believed she was bring abused but she found hubby caring. If she doesn't object to his verbal expression then she is tolerant to it and therefore not being abused. 1/ she accepts his manner of addressing her is OK 2/ she trades his caring attitude for his adverse demeanour.

All within her boundaries of liveable

TonyWK