topic Narcissist the label in Relationship and family issues

Narcissist the label

white knight — Tue, 15 Jun 2021 10:08:25 GMT

Nowhere it seems more common than USA where people claim someone is a narcissist. Anything that evolves there, comes here quite quickly now with social media and internet influences.

I read recently a question from a member of an international forum - "My narcissist boyfriend has gone silent for 2 weeks, does that mean it's over?"

What followed was numerous answers all centreing on all actions a narcissist does, like using the silent treatment as a weapon, manipulation and grandiose reflections of themselves. Yet no one asked what actions the man labelled a narcissist actually did to deserve that label apart from having no contact for 2 weeks. Was the man using silence/absenteeism as a weapon or was he needing a break from a toxic relationship? Was he batheing in confidence or does he have a narcissist grandiosity demeanor? Does he manipulate or does he over suggest things due to not giving enough feedback?

Google "narcissist meaning" there is 9 signs of one-

Nine Signs and Symptoms of Narcissism
Grandiosity. Exaggerated sense of self-importance. ...
Excessive need for admiration. ...
Superficial and exploitative relationships. ...
Lack of empathy. ...
Identity disturbance. ...
Difficulty with attachment and dependency. ...
Chronic feelings of emptiness and boredom. ...
Vulnerability to life transitions

I'd suggest most people claiming their partner is a narcissist, wont satisfy most of these symptoms. So the label is overused, inflammatory and unjust... bullying.

E.g. A woman marries a guy that, later on has proved he is (in her eyes- lazy, looks in the mirror hourly, need constant praise, doesn't show empathy for her struggles and relies on her career success for financial stability. They have had 3 kids and just separated.... He exercises his rights to 50% custody which is opposite of her desire of full custody.

His partner labels him a narcissist. He loosely fits some of the 9 signs, enough for her to justify it.

Little did anyone realise that HIS symptoms also mirrored depression, lack of confidence from a poor upbringing, stares at the mirror because he has social barriers, feels shame and has a loud voice. Friends believe her.

That example might draw a long bow but claims by many that a narcissist is one when they are not is also a long bow...even longer!

The message here is evidence, if not presented to endorse the label someone uses...It's likely a gross exaggeration. Best not to fall for others claim someone is narcissistic imo.

TonyWK

Narcissist the label

eight — Tue, 15 Jun 2021 11:05:07 GMT

there's an articulate essay about this called the missing missing reasons for your concerns about lack of evidence.

Narcissist the label

Katyonthehamsterwheel — Tue, 15 Jun 2021 11:52:15 GMT

eight - could you please clarify your post. I tried googling "the missing" - is this the name of the essay? Thanks, Katy

Narcissist the label

eight — Tue, 15 Jun 2021 12:36:27 GMT

the missing missing reasons by issendai

Narcissist the label

white knight — Tue, 15 Jun 2021 12:38:44 GMT

Hi Eight

You've misread. My post is about those not a victim of narcissism but claim to be.

TonyWK

Narcissist the label

white knight — Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:06:49 GMT

I'd like to clarify my original post.

Victims of narcissists is a terrible position to be in. In fact a good portion of those victims are in desperate need to get help as walking away from their partner (or boss) is not easy.

Narcissist is the new "buzz word" used by many that feel hard done by. If it was proven narcissists make up say 10% of the population I'd say it is at the popularity levels people claim.

Hence this thread- that if someone is labelled a narcissist and isnt one, then it is a cruel label especially if used aimed at the demonising of a parent to their children but also friends and family. Those adults dont know the reasons for a marriage breakdown so when the "N" word is used they easily jumped to conclusions like he was controlling, a stand over type, manipulative and self centred etc.

Labels used as weapons is hurtful to those that wear them without choice. We should be compassionate enough as human beings to be careful how we tag others as a level to portray ourselves as the innocent party. We are all here to seek help, some ongoing help at that. Members labelled narcissists or even diagnosed narcissists that seek help to change their ways, are entitled to the same help. After all if a person is a true narcissist then that isnt their fault just like other mental illnesses or personality defects.

You cant help a narcissist until he/she wants it and has insight into their faults and that is a rare event. Regardless they are human beings so if they reach out here I hope to help even if it is a basic recommendation.

TonyWK

Narcissist the label

Guest_3256 — Thu, 17 Jun 2021 02:45:37 GMT

Hello there White Night...I do admire your posts.

This is a very interesting topic and can be more opinionated and factualised, unless one is diagnosed by a health professional. For someone who has a back-ground in human behaviour and a partner who at times experiences difficulties managing their behaviour, I can relate to people who claim to see some of the symptoms outline in your post. Again, unless one has the knowledge, it's best to seek a professional diagnoses.

However, I do personally agree that Narcissism term is widely used, even by people who experience behavioral difficulties, that sometimes it's not relevant for our particular situation(s). You see, we are all humans and no human is perfect. We tend to look for a label instead of pausing and seeing the situation for what it is. We all experience difficulties and we all have doubts about who we are. What matters is how we resolve the issue to live a happy and prosperous life.

So back to NPD. For myself and the person I love, it's a fine line between pleasure and pain. For healthy spouses, it can be very difficult to navigate their partners behavioral difficulties and that is exactly what personality illnesses are - behavioral difficulties; we all have them which is why we are not perfect and this comes back to why the term Narcissism can be over-used.

Narcissist the label

Ggrand — Thu, 17 Jun 2021 03:42:53 GMT

Hello Tony and everyone...

I agree with you Tony..That If a person that’s diagnosed as a narcissist is trying to get help..and has come here for support they are entitled and do very much deserve all the support that they can get.....without judgement...

I have also found the word narcissist used more and more to label people who could be just an angry person or self centred...at times but not really a narcissist at all..as Jsua says...a behavioural problem...

Living with a narcissist is like living with the game Russian roulette..you never know if today or tomorrow you will survive them...Each day your living in fear of being physically, emotionally, sexually abused...scared to say anything at all just in case you use the wrong tone, or the wrong words..then if you don’t talk to them....trouble is on hand...I remember I learnt to make him the centre of attention with constantly praising him, for even the simplest and tiniest thing...

They find fault with everything you do...if you hang the clothes wrong..expect them to be thrown on the ground to be re - washed and hung properly ..if you miss a piece of dust on the floor..he emptied the ash tray onto it and rubbed it in with his feet..to be re polished...If you dish up something he doesn’t like..then it’s tipped all over you...

Silence they say is golden...being totally ignored for weeks or months at a time..is something that is so cruel that you feel nothing more then a useless tiny speck of dirt....and that’s putting it nicely...

The above is some..just some of what surviving a life with a narcissist is really like...oh there is so much I could write here.... I know Tony..that you also are a survivor....

If you say your living with a narcissist ..it’s an understatement...Maybe they are just self centred, greedy people..because you can’t live with them...you can say that you survived living with a narcissist...

If a person on here who has narcissistic traits..and are reaching out for help....they know they have a mental problem...and it’s in out power to help and support them in any way we can...without judgment, and with our care...after all they are people...doing it hard withbtheit mental health...

Narcissist the label

white knight — Thu, 17 Jun 2021 10:12:01 GMT

Hi JSUA

hot the nail on the head there. Behaviour difficulties...makes sense. Such difficulties likely from the environment they grew up in.

You're also right in that we are all imperfect, but some imperfect enough to get labelled. I think traits of narcissism is a problem only if it's ongoing and no treatment sort. Commonly narcissist don't seek help though so the victim/s continue to suffer.

So a true narcissist have big issues to be remedied. They are frowned upon. Little wonder why a non narcissist labelled as one is received with humiliation.

Grandy, yes the silent treatment I endured for 11 years. But actions that you listed in addition to silence would have been horrific.

TonyWK

Narcissist the label

Juliet_84 — Fri, 18 Jun 2021 14:11:32 GMT

Couldn’t agree more. I think that diagnoses should best be left to the experts. I think part of the problem is that everyone now has access to the internet and so many sites list qualities of a narcissist that don’t actually fit the correct definition. And they don’t have the correct skills to distinguish a medical website from an untrustworthy source. So when they punch in the “symptoms” of any bad behaviour that they don’t like, out comes the narcissist label.

I think that “narcissist” is now really used to condemn any time of behavior that the labeller finds offensive. But labeling someone else with a psychological diagnosis that hasn’t been given by a medical professional may be considered a manipulative behavior in itself. I’m reminded of a quote I once read “people often go to therapy to learn to deal with the people in their lives who refuse to go”. I don’t doubt that some people are nightmares to their partner, but everyone’s reality is also subjective and that’s why it’s best to have an independent psychologist there to mediate.

Narcissist the label

white knight — Fri, 18 Jun 2021 14:28:37 GMT

Well said Juliet

I also read today again on an international forum "what I did with my narcissistic wife when she gave me the silent treatment for 3 weeks is ...I gave it back to her for 4 weeks.

Two wrongs don't make a right. If you are not a narcissist then don't act like one. If you are treated inhumanely by a person urge them to get help. If they don't get help then take action to rid your life of such torturous behaviour.

"But labeling someone else with a psychological diagnosis that hasn’t been given by a medical professional may be considered a manipulative behavior in itself."

Very good comment. Often occurs when someone want to benefit from a situation.

TonyWK

Narcissist the label

Juliet_84 — Sat, 19 Jun 2021 12:29:37 GMT

Exactly, I think back to my abusive ex-partner who used to gaslight me and accuse me of actually being the abusive one. We would go to therapy and then he would come home and take the role of the therapist as he gave me a character assassination and conveniently brushed over the fact that he had been the focus of most of the sessions. Interpreting someone else’s behaviors as narcissistic and then responding in kind hardly seems like a mature, reasonable approach. We also don’t know what events led up to the “silent treatment”, not that I condone that type of behavior. But obviously if someone had been verbally abusive during an argument then I understand a persons reluctance to engage with them afterwards until the dust has settled. That’s the problem I suppose, it’s a lot easier to label someone as narcissistic and avoid any sort of internal reflection about your own role in the deterioration of your relationship.

Narcissist the label

white knight — Sat, 19 Jun 2021 14:26:14 GMT

I don't know the percentages but people who's depression is caused or triggered by a partners adverse behaviour must be high.

Gaslighting, silent treatment often is not realised by the victim as being abnormal. The perpetrator convinces the victim they are wrong.

Many patients attend therapy not because they are mentally unwell but because they are victims of abuse.

TonyWK

Narcissist the label

Juliet_84 — Sun, 20 Jun 2021 07:51:33 GMT

I agree, it’s so very sad. Often you are made to feel to blame for another persons treatment of you, when if they really looked back they would see a common thread throughout their relationships. But demanding and abusive people rarely do that, they look at the world through a “what can you do for me” lens. I hope that in this newly enlightened era, that these types of behaviors will come out into the open more and people won’t be so able to get away with it. That is my hope at least. Perhaps from that perspective, the newfound realization that the word “narcissist” exists isn’t such a bad thing? Even if it is a bit misguided?

Narcissist the label

Ggrand — Sun, 20 Jun 2021 09:33:20 GMT

Hello Tony, Juliet...and all...🤗..

The silent treatment...If I even tried to give it back to my late husband...I had some very bad consequences coming my way.....I tried once...and that was one time too many...Strange how after weeks of totally ignoring you..They can start talking to you again...like they did nothing wrong and that period of their silence never even happened..

I think that they give the silent treatment because they know they are wrong and cannot tolerate that so they just close their mouth, ears and eyes..and make us invisible to them...Such a horrible feeling for the recipient....

Tony...I think that depression can be triggered by a person’s adverse behaviour towards a spouse/partner/parents/siblings etc......while still living with them....but once free from them....and the trauma they went through has caused a type of mental damage...then it seems to change into getting triggered into PTSD which is then followed by bad depression...

I think a lot of people have narcissistic traits and it will surface at times...and then they are called a narcissist..If these people seek help from professionals that is so good..but in my own opinion a true narcissist won’t reach out to professionals because..they believe nothing is wrong with them...they are right in everything they do and say...and everyone else is wrong...

Just my thoughts and not intending to hurt anyone reading...If I did I am really sorry..

Grandy..

Narcissist the label

white knight — Sun, 20 Jun 2021 13:56:21 GMT

Hi Grandy and Juliet,

The meaning of the word narcissist or narcissistic has changed.

I saw a graph on the internet and prior to 1990 it was rarely used.

Furthermore, the unofficial meaning has changed. Here is the official meaning-

of, relating to, or characterized by narcissism: such as. a : extremely self-centered with an exaggerated sense of self-importance : marked by or characteristic of excessive admiration of or infatuation with oneself a narcissistic personality He was a very narcissistic man, not too concerned with the world.—

No mention.of the traits we think, like silent treatment, control, abuse, ownership and obsession.

Anyway, back to the now genericly known and accepted meaning.

Grandy you are right, a narc won't seek help. My theory on this is that while living their life of control few people can confront them and win. To bow to treatment is to risk their shield from cracking and give their victims a sniff of success or at least relevance.

Juliet- yes they are selfish, extremely which means they have little ability to truly love.As I see it the only way they will be caught out or condemned is shaming in a movement from the masses. The "me to" movement is an example, however that is where physical abuse was present which is, by courts (and juries) greater evidence. The narc can claim his/her silence was his human and constitutional right, his control of his spouse due to her need for it etc

Stamping it out impossible, freeing yourself from it, more ideal as that takes your power back.

My mother has narc traits. She ruined my 1st wedding 1985. By 2011 we were going ok but the attention wasn't on her when I was about to marry again so she wanted to ruin it again. I sort a AVO to ensure she couldn't attend our park wedding.

When I attended court the magistrate was about to read a letter from my mother. I requested he not do so. I knew what was in it e.g. my father would roll over in his grave etc etc.

He granted the AVO. We had a great wedding.

My mother's power neutralized.

TonyWK

Narcissist the label

batticus — Tue, 22 Jun 2021 03:38:25 GMT

The term Narcissist does get thrown around a lot now

People who are true narcissists are few and far between from what I understand... that said, I'm sure many people have narcissistic tendencies. More often I now hear the abbreviated form of the word - "Narc". It's become a real throwaway word.

There's also so many different types of narcissist such as overt, covert and vulnerable... and then there is also borderline personality disorder.

The thing that makes me uncomfortable is the way people seem to vilify individuals who may be in the narcissist 'spectrum'. As if they are intrinsically horrible people. A lot of the time it can be the result of factors outside their control... upbringing etc.

My partner, she is on this spectrum. Several of my psychologists have suggested she is a covert narcissist or vulnerable narcissist. Initially I didn't believe it but further reading really opened my eyes. It explained so much about the confusing and erratic behaviour I was dealing with.

I wish people would be a bit more informed before using the "N" word so quickly.

Narcissist the label

white knight — Tue, 22 Jun 2021 11:24:58 GMT

Hi Batticus

Extremely well written easily understood post.

We all know that many people with a undiagnosed mental illness won't seek help due to either denial or stubbornness. Narcissists or BPD sufferers are more likely not to seek treatment and if they do it's for short periods then they could blame the therapist or anyone else for being at fault.

However they all deserve equality of assistance but only that can be delivered to them if they are willing to receive it. Those that do face their demons deserve great respect and admiration. Those that don't will find life as being lonely as others around them drift away.

So yes "narc" the label is a savage word.

TonyWK

Narcissist the label

Guest_1643 — Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:03:05 GMT

Hi all,

I may be wrong but as I undestand it NPD is a personality disorder in one of the three clusters of personality disorders.

Some ppl don't believe that it exists, but it would be in the DSM

Is it a real thing? I don't know....
I find learning about narcissm as a whole pretty interesting, i used to always think it was a buzz word, but there are ppl who manifest the traits quite clearly. They are in every job and every walk of life. There are narc therapists, doctors, CEOs etc.

I had a narc therapist and my life was damaged beyond repair - it was terrible. But I have learnt a lot about how to spot the traits.

I agree the term is overused, but anyone who's experienced narc abuse would find it helpful to learn more about it. Can be a bit of an "aha" moment. For me the entitlement is a common theme with narcs in my life

Narcissist the label

Guest_1643 — Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:04:56 GMT

i have been told that narcs are unlikey to go to therapy - because they think nothing is wrong.
That's interesting.
Ive met many ppl with BPD in therapy though who do seek help.