topic Fighting the narc in court in Relationship and family issues

Fighting the narc in court

Eleven11 — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 13:06:35 GMT

Is this something anyone else is going through at the moment? I've been in this battle for the past three years and seriously find the legal system a joke.

Fighting the narc in court

blondguy — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 13:44:44 GMT

Hey Eleven

Welcome to the forums. My name is Paul....It sounds like you are in a tough place right now...Its just difficult to help if you dont provide us with a problem. Do you mean the family court? If you do I have spent nearly seven years on and off trying to get 'contact' with my wonderful daughter back in the 90's.

If you wish to elaborate we are here for you 11

Kind Thoughts

Paul

Fighting the narc in court

Eleven11 — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 21:42:54 GMT

Hey Paul,

I'm sorry for being so vague. Don't really know where to start. Yes, family law. 3 years I have been in the system with property settlement. I have a narc ex who would rather hold onto me this way than let me live my life. He has lied and continues to lie, he causes delays intentionally and supplies information for disclosure that is either fabricated, has pages missing. Just before each court attendance, his legal team will throw in a red herring or two to mislead the case with other matters. Hate how my life is put on hold and how something so easily sorted has dragged on for this long. I have from the beginning only wanted the fair share but even that is a struggle. I was financially abused throughout more than 20 years of marriage because I was under the belief we were working towards the future of our kids and our financial future. Instead he hid money, spent it at his will and fabricated stories. I believed everything he said as I knew no better. Things have only been made clear the past 5 years since I discovered him cheating and I unraveled a whole lie within our lives. I have had to financially reconstruct over 20 years of information I had no access to. The legal system seems to work for those that lie and are coniving instead of fact and truth. Guess I'm hoping someone here has been through the same and can help me with their experience.

Fighting the narc in court

pipsy — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 22:04:43 GMT

Dear Eleven11. Lynda here. You've probably guessed by now narc's have an excellent way of knowing how far to push buttons. Is your lawyer aware he's basically fighting a narc. Once it goes to court, he will twist everything to make it seem that you're the one who did wrong. If your lawyer is aware of the personality condition, make sure he has the 'i's' dotted, and the 't's' crossed. You need to be prepared for everything your ex's lawyer will put to you. When narc's are challenged, they are inclined to tell whoever challenges them that everything they've ever done has been for their families. They come across very convincingly and look you directly when they say whatever. They actually believe they did nothing to deserve the treatment they get. Unfortunately, because their own lawyer (usually unintentionally) may instruct them that if they're unable to attend court procedure because of 'unavoidable circumstances', either the hearing will be delayed, or the lawyer will do his best in their absence. If the lawyer tells the client he will do his best, often the narc may instruct his lawyer that he needs to be there. Perhaps a letter from your lawyer along with a Dr's note to his lawyer explaining the personality of your ex might help. Not saying it will, but it's worth considering. Have a talk with your lawyer about the personality of your ex.

Best of luck with this one. Lynda.

Fighting the narc in court

blondguy — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 02:25:41 GMT

Hi Eleven11

No worries at all Eleven. I am sorry to read what your ex has done to you for so many years. He is also still trying to manipulate and control as well. I see that you only wanted your fair share and he wasnt happy with that either.

Even though I was in the same court with contact issues it can be a dreadful period to go through. I was fortunate with my ex as we just used the 50/50 principle without court. I also have some friends in the US and they have the 50/50 split as well.

The first charter of the family court is to operate 'In The Child's Best Interests' I hope the court realises your position as the mother of the children in your particular case.

I was sad and disappointed to read that your ex has been cheating on you as well. Due to being a property settlement you cant really suggest to the court he undergo a psychological evaluation either. In contact disputes this can be done to enable a more informed decision to be made.

Pipsy has a point about making the court aware of your ex's personality. Whether a sworn affidavit or statement may help

This is a bad place to be in eleven..I sincerely wish you well and hope your situation has the courts' consideration before a decision is handed down.

Kind Thoughts for you

Paul

Fighting the narc in court

Burnt_by_a_Narcissist — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 02:00:25 GMT

❤️ hugs

I am finally out the other side of court, divorce, property settlement and child access, for now.

I was totally kept out of the loop in terms of our finances, so I had no clue how to truly find everything. I know he'd hidden stuff but couldn't find it. Also employed a forensic accountant, he found nothing and it cost about $3k for him to tell me that. The exN screwed me in property settlement and with ongoing support. I can't work more than a couple of days a week, so things can be tough. I probably spent about $35K on two court proceedings; one for property settlement and the other to move the children interstate.

I had to let a lot of things slide in order to be "let" move interstate.

The Australian court system (federal court in this case) doesn't recognise narcissistic high conflict abuse and manipulation. Even my lawyer said he'd be able to handle it.. but was surprised with what an awful person the exN turned out to be.

Hugs ❤️

Fighting the narc in court

Narc_Survivor — Sat, 09 Jul 2016 05:26:51 GMT

Dear Eleven11,

I just looked on this site to try and get help for my situation and found your post. Wow, narcissists heh!!! I separated from my narc almost 3 years ago. We have 4 children, 1 with special needs and we are only now attempting to settle financially. He has stopped providing any child support (I think he feels I get enough money from my part time job and Centrelink) and he has the children reluctantly for 4 days a month. However, he constantly puts on Facebook how much he loves the kids, how hard it is with a special needs child and how greedy and awful I am (because I ask for child support money).

I have done so much research on narcissism and narcissistic abuse that I ended up signing up for a psych degree and have enough data to write a book (may do that one day). Your ex sounds quite text book with the control, lying and cheating. What I have learnt from my own experience and from research is that the only way to deal with them is to be completely dismissive and have no unnecessary contact with them. Do not look them up on Facebook, do not respond to text messages or emails (unless strictly about the children) & just don't react. They will continue to fire venom at you and throw in these 'red herrings' but please try to see it for what it is. They have lost control of you and do not cope with that type of rejection.

All of this is exhausting I know. I am using a free legal service at the moment as I know that my ex will drag this out as long as possible. Is this something you could do - it takes a little pressure off if you are not having to fork out each time their story changes. Their whole point is to wear you down - when I feel like this, I just look up a couple of narcissism sites to be reminded that this is not my fault. Trusting your husband (or wife) with finances and fidelity is expected of marriage so please do not be hard on yourself and don't blame yourself.

I hope that you continue to post on here about your journey. You will get through this eventually but I will keep checking in and support you on the way.

And in all of this try to remember - they have to live with themselves ALL the time. Imagine how awful that would be!!

Fighting the narc in court

Foreverinbluejeans — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:41:51 GMT

Wow! My story is so similar to these. 20 years together. We now have three children aged 6-11. He has treated us terribly over the years. He was mean, controlling, gave me no access to money, ignored me, barely saw the kids. Last year i discovered he'd been living a secret life and spending our savings at a ridiculous rate. He had money in accounts in my name for his own personal use. He even put large sums of money in and out of my personal account without my knowledge while i was pregnant with my third child. He is a business man and earns an enormous amount of money. When i caught him out , he denied everything and raged. He left. He is now living with another woman. Not the one he spent our savings with. Recently he saw a lawyer and was told he's entitled to 40% of the remaining assets and that what he spent is irrelevant. I'm hoping to keep our home. My children have good friends and enjoy school. We go to court next week. He didn't file all the requested documents saying he is unable to get his bank statements. He is a horrible horrible man. I desperately hope to be free of him soon. Of course his friends and family adore him. He blames everything on me. I wanted us to come to an agreement on our own, but he refuses to speak to me. He hasn't spoken to me for years. As if i don't exist. He was horrible to live with. Kids don't seem to like him much. It's bizarre to be in this situation. So much of my life being treated terribly. I'm so sad for my children.

Fighting the narc in court

RubyBeans — Fri, 20 Apr 2018 11:08:37 GMT

Hey Forever

I just want to say how sorry I am that you are experiencing this. I hope that Court goes as smoothly as it can for you next week.

I have a young daughter to an abusive alcoholic, gambling addict pathological liar who is like no man I've ever encountered before. He is so manipulative and nasty. I am not with him and he has only quietened down a little recently because he knows i know terrible things about his past and also about his current situation. I dont think he will stay quiet long though.

I just wanted to share a little about me as you may have experienced something similar or at least understand how difficult it is to deal with a narcissist. I am here if you want to share more. I really hope you are ok and have the support of friends or family.

Fighting the narc in court

Beam — Fri, 11 Oct 2019 18:08:49 GMT

Hi Eleven

I’m currently going through something so similar to you but my marriage was 10yrs.

i’ve spent 4 years and a lot of money trying to obtain financial freedom.
I signed a financial agreement that my ex tried to overturn.

I’m now in the court system with good lawyers.

But at every point my ex manages to out-manoeuvre the system through lies and manipulation.

One of the biggest problems is the lag between court dates, and relevance of information by the time you get there.

its slow and costly.

everyone tells me that justice prevails but it’s really hard to believe the system will work the way it’s supposed to.

I see these posts are old but thought I’d touch base anyway.

Fighting the narc in court

Guest0987 — Mon, 13 Jan 2020 12:54:35 GMT

Hi forever

my wife is doing the same thing to me

i hope to get 60% as I am the care provider and she is a narc Dr who earns and spends a shit load

inhave just been some employed help and now our son is going to high school she has disposed of me

i called her out on being a narc and why it happened to her I told her I new her better than herself as she has memory splitting and despite getting 99.6 in her HSC she cannot remember the hurtful things she says and even the truth when she is raging

I just wish she would admit to an affair so I could move on emotionally

20 years old f my emotional investment wasted in her

oh well at least I can save my son and break the cycle

good luck

ant

Fighting the narc in court

Guest909 — Tue, 31 Mar 2020 23:42:56 GMT

Hi All

From what I have read most narcissists are men; but that is possibly because women with the same disorder are not so obvious. Evidently there are many types of narcissism; not all are obvious.

After 30 years of marriage my narcissist wife decided that I was no longer of any more use. The marriage was a childless marriage because she decided that children were too much of an inconvenience. In retrospect, I suppose children would have taken some of the limelight off her; something that I did not realise at the time.

After we separated my wife's behaviour became more controlling, vindictive and paranoiac. I have received multiple DVO threats and a litany of vile allegations from her lawyer; all of which are a figment of her vile imagination. She has weaponised the legal system to delay and obfuscate the property settlement process, simply because she wants nothing to change.

Her sense of entitlement knows no bounds. After supporting her for 30 years, she thinks that I should support her for the next 30 years; she also thinks that she is the victim.

Our property settlement is a simple matter that could have been settled months ago. Sadly, I had to start court action just to get her to the mediation table. Unsurprisingly, mediation fail and we are now heading to court ordered arbitration which she will most likely ignore in preference for a court hearing that will take years and a small fortune to settle.

Divorcing a narcissist is difficult; divorcing this narcissist is even more difficult because she will try to weaponise and manipulate the legal system to get what she wants.

Just a few thoughts!

Fighting the narc in court

Betternow — Wed, 01 Apr 2020 01:42:54 GMT

Wow, these people sound horrible. Thank heavens I have not had to deal with what several posters have written.

I seem to hearing or reading about the term "narc" frequently these days. At first I thought it referred to police involved in narcotic trafficking prevention. Now I know it is referring to narcissists.

I have since been trying to educate my self on some facts about narcism. Here is my summary on what I have learnt.

1. Like all psychological disorders it rests on a spectrum. Mild narcism may hardly be noticed while severe narcism can be a serious psychological disorder.

2. There seems to be sub categories including overt, covert, malignant and sociopathic.

3. Gender differences. This area of research seems to be controversial. While several studies have reported it more common in males (roughly 7% versus 5%), these studies had limitations (acknowledged by the authors). It may be as Mr Paul has suggested that males display a more obvious style.

4. What seems to be less controversial is that of the 9 key traits of pathological narcism generally accepted, males and females are similar on 7 of them. The two that are different are behaviours to money and power.

5. Men will try any method (including deceit) to gain money while narcissistic women are more focused on spending the money (even if it's not their own). When it comes to achieving power, men are more likely to use games and manipulation while women are more likely to use sexual charms.

Wherever the truth really lies on the facts of narcism, everyone seems to agree if you are unfortunate enough to marry one who rests on the moderate to severe scale, you can expect a very uncomfortable life.

Fighting the narc in court

Guest909 — Wed, 01 Apr 2020 04:27:44 GMT

You make some good points that agree with what I have personally observed. I am no authority in this area; but by necessity, I'm learning fast.

You are correct, narcissism does seem to lie on a spectrum. I always knew that my wife had a problem; I just did not recognise the signs that were all so subtle at first. When I retired her position on the spectrum changed dramatically for the worse.
There seems to be a lot of sub-categories; so far I've found six types and I'm still counting. In my experience the narcissist can fit into multiple categories at the same time. I don't know if this is common or if I'm just the unlucky one.
Agree
Agree
Once again this seems to relate to my personal experience. Throughout the marriage my wife had unfettered access to cash. There was no restriction on her spending other than to be responsible. After we separated, I was shocked to get correspondence for her lawyer claiming that I was "financially controlling". If the accusation was not so serious it would be a joke. I suspect this is her way to hurt me and control the process; a win/win in her mind.

Fighting the narc in court

GirlKangaroo — Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:00:07 GMT

I'm glad I found this forum. It's horrible that others are suffering a separation with a narcissist and wow... it's the most difficult thing to endure. A narcissist will deliberately prolong the proceedings causing high legal expenses just to continue their perceived control over you. I was only with mine for 5 years, and we're 14-months into the separation now. Never married, no kids and I worked, owned for and paid for everything yet he thinks he's entitled to half of everything and worse, finds every excuse not to mediate. Mediation will be a waste of time, but something we must do if we're ever to get a court date. It's turned me off relationships permanently.

Fighting the narc in court

Guest909 — Wed, 14 Oct 2020 23:05:02 GMT

Hi GirlK

When dealing with a narc' mediation will be a waste of time; unfortunately it is a must prior to court action. That being said, if mediation fails, you can go to "arbitration" rather than court. Something to look into if you have not already done so. Arbitration is much quicker and cheaper than court.

The court cannot order mediation or arbitration, it has to be voluntary. At the same time, the court will insist on mediation and push you into voluntary arbitration as the court does not want to get involved. I'm sure you have had similar legal advice.

To my knowledge, the court would consider a 5 year de facto relationship as a short relationship. This should work in your favor, no matter where you end up.

If I can give you one piece of advice, do not go to court. The time and expense will be prohibitive, especially if your ex partner is a narc'. The court does not want you unless there are extenuating circumstances to be dealt with.

When dealing with a narc', you will need the court to put down timeframes. That does not mean you have to follow through with court action. In my case, the court insisted on setting a mediation date, and then insisted on setting an arbitration date. Without the court, my narc's wife would not have gone to mediation or arbitration, we would still be in limbo waiting for a court hearing a year or two down the track.

When you are dealing with a narc' you have to be proactive; you have to set boundaries. Put your business hat on, and approach the problem as a business woman. Check-in your emotions at the door.

Happy to help if I can!

Fighting the narc in court

checta — Sun, 14 Mar 2021 09:45:23 GMT

Thank you all for this thread.

After 17 years I finally had the courage and concrete proof of my (soon to be ex) husbands sociopathy to lock him out of my house.

I feel relieved & safe from abuse which is an amazing feeling. He also has misogynistic views & issues with sex and control so I am proud of my actions to protect my daughter (& in the not too distant future her adolescent friends)

I do know this will be a long and annoying road, but very hopeful about coming out the other side.

I am very keen to fast track a relocation order & have a good lawyer but wonder if anyone has some helpful tips? The narc in this story has alienated all his family (in Sydney) & every family friend relationships we had here (Melbourne) My daughter is nearly 7 and except for the COVID year he’s been travelling 50+% of her life. (And of course living it up like a rock star while away) I have a large and extremely loving family in Sydney and want to take my daughter there so she can experience what loving family is and ideally reconnect to his family as I know they dearly miss her (she’s the only niece for his siblings/ and only granddaughter of 5 grandchildren for his parents)

I am sure you are all familiar with this trail of destruction and broken relationships. I mistakenly thought there was a good person inside this narc, but now know for sure. This one is a sexual predator, so pretty dangerous as well as destructive.

Fighting the narc in court

Sophie_M — Sun, 14 Mar 2021 10:00:29 GMT

Hey Checta,

Welcome to the Beyond Blue forums, we're glad to see that you've been able to resonate with other members stories. We know how relieving it can be to discover you're not alone in having these experiences.

We're so happy to hear that you feel safe and are hopeful for the future. If you ever need some extra support please feel free to contact 1800RESPECT. They offer confidential information, counselling and support 24/7 for people impacted by sexual assault, domestic or family violence and abuse. The lovely supportive counsellors have a lot of experience offering advice to people in your situation. You can contact them on 1800 737 732 or https://www.1800respect.org.au/

Some threads you might be interested in reading include:

"Moving on after leaving emotionally abusive relationship" -
https://www.beyondblue.org.au/get-support/online-forums/ptsd-trauma/moving-on-after-leaving-emotionally-abusive-relationship

"Trying to end an abusive relationship"
https://healthyfamilies.beyondblue.org.au/seeking-support/helping-yourself-and-others/online-forums/ptsd-trauma/trying-to-end-an-abusive-relationship

"Reset button"
https://www.beyondblue.org.au/get-support/online-forums/ptsd-trauma/reset-button#qwRpXHHzvGGEbv8AAOnT_A

We know it has taken courage for you to share your story today, so thank you. We hope that you can find some comfort in the forums.

Fighting the narc in court

Kailan — Sat, 08 May 2021 02:53:55 GMT

Omg this is my story

Im currently in a refuge for woman from abuse after 7 years of financial,mental , and physical abuse . I'm currently fighting for my son back after having major surgery. He was looking at surveillance to put inside house . He physically abused my children and his reason for surveillance was to prove its my 12 year old upsetting him . He never allowed my name on his bank account and access to a pin .I was only allowed tap credit for food . Due to his income I wasn't entitled to government income so I was 100% reliant. My two year old daughter has autism and I never left house due to his refusal for daycare saying I'm a mother deal with it. I ended up with anxiety and depression and his mother put me into a hospital I now believe as a attempt to discredit me as a person his family come around with suspected whooping cough when I had a newborn then told me I owed them a apology for being upset about it . He has hit me called me names put me down so much I didn't recognise myself I was sticky taping my birth certificate and documents under drawers as he would hide things to prevent me leaving even car keys , house alarm so I couldn't re enter for belongings . A few weeks ago I just got out of surgery and couldn't walk his abuse was shocking so I called a DV line . He went to the local police acted victim and I had a AVO served on me while I lay in bed with blood clott stockings . He then left with my son and cancelled credit card my phone and used police to do welfare checks to find my location . I'm now fighting for my 5 year old who's birthday is today . Please these things don't happen straight away . They start with small red flags of control and manipulation . Write down the abuse ,dates ,take photos , tell people . Make a escape plan be safe . And never tell them your leaving they will turn your life upside down focus on your response to there abuse ,gaslight you act like they are victims and leave you in piece's without a second thought .

Fighting the narc in court

Looking_to_Help_Others — Tue, 27 Jul 2021 01:39:50 GMT

Hi. My sister is going through a horrendous court process with family court and estate / executor / administration. The collective cost is the order of $450K so far and still not resolved. It is not appropriate and looking at these posts she is not alone. My issue is the legal process which allows / facilitates this to occur. I think lawyers and judges need to be educated about narcissism so that it might be possible to factor this into their decision making and advice. There is a fundamental gap in the system which does not capture this situation. In order to turn our experience into something beneficial for others I am contemplating some type of education /awareness training (need to find the right person to deliver it) as well as tips and resources in order for people to arm themselves with an approach and plan pre, during and post separation and court proceedings. If I can gather enough feedback or stories to inform the process then I might be able to translate this into something beneficial for others perhaps ... who knows...however, it is attempt to turn the tables on these type of people, help people manage their own lawyers and opposition lawyers through insight and planning and to try and give some sort of control back to people in a seemingly powerless situation.

If you feel this might be beneficial in any respect it would be good to know. It might end taking the form of a submission to Australian Legal Reform Commission or collectively assist individuals in specific situations through group or fundraising or forums or compassionate legal (maybe retired) who might have the ability to assist.

Interested in your thoughts. Pleased to discuss.

Regards,

Ashley