topic Men isolated in Staying well

Men isolated

white knight — Sun, 08 Apr 2018 04:28:16 GMT

I'd like to hear from men. I want to know your inner feelings about anything that you feel isolated about. I'd like to know if you feel that the revolution towards equality of the sexes has gone too far to a point whereby you are feeling inferior to women or you feel women are being treated better in any way - just because you are a man.

Emotionally, are you feeling that you get enough support from females? Do you feel women are afraid to hug you to comfort you for any reason? like you'll take advantage of them? Do you have many female friends? Do you feel that women socialize better? What do YOU want socially?

Feel free, talk, let go of your restraints, take advantage of the anonymous environment to let yourself be heard. We can do this and be in error, that our presumptions are ill directed and unfair. It could be our own inapproachability for example that can sway women away from us when we need them most.

Are we misread? I know when I'm in conflict with someone I come across as a little aggressive or arguing in a normal male manner and that can portray someone that is not in need of support but is someone to avoid. NOTHING could be further from the truth.

So that's one gripe. I feel women don't pursue the friendship care far enough. Such limited care results in my feelings of isolation. I think I'm a "giver" apart from my supportive wife no woman supports me anywhere near the level I give to them. Is this an illusion? What do you think?

Two people. One a woman that enters a group, say a hobby group. She sits down and isn't feeling emotionally well. She is asked a question like "how is your day"? She burst into tears. The whole group of 10 ladies stand and hold her hand, hand on her shoulder, comforting and reassurance. She is not alone. They even ring her later and talk at length. The other person a middle aged male enters a motoring clubroom in his local town, his male friends restore cars and share drinks. He sits and realizes he was in no shape to attend. A guy asks him how his restoration is going. He is upset thinking about his car as due to his depression he hasn't been to his shed for weeks. He suddenly starts crying. The men, all of whom start to feel uncomfortable, mention a few things like" you'll get there don't worry". He is worried because he knows that half of the men there actually think he is a softy by crying, to stand clear of him because he has problems, to avoid him as it might upset their own happy day in the sun....

Tony WK

Men isolated

white knight — Sun, 08 Apr 2018 23:31:42 GMT

My wife pointed out last night after I gave her the examples of a male and female being upset, that men dont seek the same "fussing over" support.

She's right. But I think women also get so focussed on their own interwoven support for each other men are on their own

By the time the male gets angry about that, its too late. A man hates asking for help. A bipolar male like me hints woth onvious suggestions, gets no help so then through anger walks away.

Women can be very supportive, warm, soft, wonderful... but there is, from this males viewpoint, a slight imbalance. Maybe more than slight!

Hence the thread.

How do you feel? Do you as a male feel you dont get any attention in your dark hours?

Is this the key why male suicides are much much higher? If you've ever felt suicidal am I on the right track as to how you felt?

Tony WK

Men isolated

Birdy77 — Sun, 08 Apr 2018 23:59:46 GMT

Hello Tony,

I'm so sorry to hear you are feeling isolated and unsupported. I read your original post yesterday and wanted to extend a caring word or two of support, but you said you wanted to hear from men.

Sorry if I am misinterpreting your words.

Your post today says that women are not supportive enough of you or men in your dark hours.

I am positive there are many women on these forums who would jump to try to support you, but do you want to hear from us here or just from men, like you have stated in your posts?

Maybe today would be a good day to open a support thread for yourself? Or do you want this to be your support thread? I hear you that it is hard for you to ask for help, but as you said, this is a safe and anonymous space to, in your words, "feel free, talk, let go of your restraints, take advantage of the anonymous environment to let yourself be heard."

We are all here to support you as well Tony.

🌻birdy

Men isolated

white knight — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 00:22:27 GMT

Hi birdy

Thankyou. The trouble with a journal thread of my own is there is a trap of sorts that one can get so centred on it that the rest of the forum suffers.

I dont feel its right to log on here, go only to my own thread, talk about myself, my woes, get attention from everyone then log off. That would not be fair. Yet I think it has become common.

Yes, here I'm more seeking mens feelings

A better more direct thread, a journal of my own would be

Topic: extremes, triggers that down you, triggers that lift you- beyondblue

Tony WK

Men isolated

Elizabeth CP — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 00:23:47 GMT

Tony I think that women don't deliberately refuse to support men but it may come across that way. One issue is concern re being misinterpreted & knowing what men want. I have some male friends that I have reached out & supported when they have been struggling & they have told me how much they appreciate it. These men have been close friends of both my husband & I Close enough that I feel comfortable reaching out without them thinking I'm offering anything else. This is me reaching out as a friend. Other men I feel I need to be more cautious in case they misinterpret my hugs or supportive words as as offering something more than friendship & support.

Men isolated

Birdy77 — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 00:37:10 GMT

Hello again Tony,

I don't think you would ever use a journal thread to become self-centred, you are too much a part of the very framework of the forums for that to happen.

I think it's important for you to have a space though that you can air your woes and worries so that those that you support so stoically have a means by which they can return the favour.

I am glad to see you do have a support thread as you pointed out.

I hope you get some responses from men on this thread so that you might be able to nut it out together.

Go gently Tony. Many people here care for you and appreciate you.

🌻birdy

Men isolated

white knight — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 04:37:13 GMT

Thanks for your posts. Truly loving and kind.

This thread is for all people. And in case a LGBTIQ member thinks they don’t fit in please discount that. Although I am highlighting mens difficulties and often portraying women in a lesser light this is an elusion. I treat everyone equally. Some of the best relationship and mental health issues advice I’ve ever had was from two transgender women in a male prison in the late 1970’s. They had the ability to experience both sides of the gender gap.

We are here (in this thread) to encourage people to understand men and their emotional issues which are vast. I am here in the capacity of a senior Community Champion that has bipolar2, depression, dysthymia and finally -anxiety that has now been conquered. Therefore my reactions and emotional extremes are just that, not your typical male due to such extremes but an opportunity really because such characteristics are of the extreme of your average man of what they typically endure.

So I will be more open about them, I’ll expose myself and it wont be easy. It’s a big challenge to spew my heart out and the beneficiaries will be everyone, not just men.
For women that want to learn to understand men please contribute or at least read as we go through the “herdy gerdy” (as I call it) of mens emotions. Please remember, we have a huge male suicide rate annually. I feel for many reasons that I know why this is so. I feel it, I taste it and have attempted it. Although I pledge to never go down that selfish path, one that could hurt my family forever ( a path my brother took), I know that the temptation is often there because my mental challenges to stay afloat seem unachievable.
So this thread will prove for some, an outlet to express their deepest secrets without fear. It will be raw, challenging and even embarrassing to many. I will be writing posts here covering many topics to do with male emotions. If you want to learn please read. I suspect women will open their eyes up far beyond what is normal because I have some deep male secrets that will be shared.

Welcome all to "men isolated".

Tony WK

Men isolated

white knight — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 04:42:28 GMT

THE DIFFERENCES- MEN AND WOMEN

Its appropriate to begin by acknowledging in an “equal” world some differences between us. This is dangerous territory, so many people object to such topics because of the equality push which is great, ideal, but in some cases idealistic.
Like the example of the pregnant 24 hour man. A concept dreamt up by a pregnant wife to show her husband what its like to be pregnant for 24 hours in terms of discomfort. He dons a volleyball for the unborn and stuffing for breasts and videos his discomfort for a day. Great we think. But aren’t we built differently? So lets reverse it. The husband gives his non pregnant wife an axe and instructs her to swing it in a forest for 6 hours in his forestry duties or asks her to join him at work in a pick and shovel trench for a Telco.

Such an example was prisons. I was partner to the first female prison officer in Pentridge jail in 1978. Females were allowed in the divisions of hardened inmates. The assistance females gave in difficult situations was amazing. As I/we attended to the physical brute force of restraining a difficult prisoner (often), our female colleague assisted by communicating to lower tier staff, supplying restraining equipment and some physical help. They were great but in reality they were “different” in the strength stakes. Fact. My point is- we are different. Not better, different.
Not better? But they weren’t as strong! That’s like saying women are better at carrying an unborn child. They are meant to, built that way as we are built in a way that enabled us to hunt as cavemen. As we did, we relied on our women to be the homemaker then, care for the kids and support other women as one unit. While the men hunted they weren’t interested in the solemn man that fell in an emotional heap.

These different roles have altered towards equality in only the recent 2-3 generations. The 1950’s was really the last decade of the traditional man at work and women as the homemaker roles. So 65 years, less than 3 generations only for some of us to alter our mentality that was set in stone since the beginning of the homo sapiens species.
Since then 1960’s society has focussed heavily on the emergence of women as equals. That’s good. There is some way to go like equal pay and other irregularities but by and large men have welcomed this ideal. However with the massive male suicide rate we have not made advancement towards fixing mens emotional issues.

Let’s make a difference.

Tony WK

Men isolated

white knight — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 04:47:39 GMT

MEN and CRYING

Bottled up? That’s the best wording that describes it. On the odd occasion it overflows and once started my crying can last for a few hours. Then, like a numb curled up statue I remain numb for quite some time. This is the most horrible embarrassing feeling. Embarassing? Why, often in this state nobody is present! Not even my adorable wife. She would be elsewhere and return home to know just looking at me, red cheeks, water glazed eyes, that I’d collapsed, again and alone.

Then there is the no crying distressed man. This has become more common in recent years (in me) rather than the above. But this state is as equally as distraught, equally desperate but with a level of ideas, planning and thinking of ways to escape, escape from life but on various levels.

As a young man when in this state I’d pack up my motorcycle and off to the hill/mountains of Victoria I’d go. My initial intention would be to remain there, eventually dump my bike as I wouldn’t have fuel, use various tools to hunt, revert to a person with a bare survival instinct…if it worked all well and good, if it didn’t who cares. Which frankly, the latter is a man with suicidal thoughts. Each time this happened I returned to the city to pick up where I left off. It seemed my supply of baked beans wasn’t deep enough and my hunting skills was wanting.
So this “how would I know you are unwell” declaration from others meant I had to blurt out my unwell state to them, something for the first time I’m doing at age 62. So you readers are the first in my life I’m opening up.
So continuing on, men crying can be happening as you talk to them. This amazingly efficient mask of our inner emotions is bitter sweet in that we don’t attract attention which is our preference but we anguish internally which is self destructing.

I never saw my older brother cry. Yet he took his precious life at age 26. A teacher, like me an inventor,. Had we known them days in the 60’s and 70’s that all 3 siblings had bipolar someone might have saved him. We disliked each other intensely and when I got to 15yo, he 19yo we had a fight. For the 1st time I beat him and the rift got wider. He still didn’t cry yet when he left a note it all came out, his sadness at being alone, not ever having a girlfriend of someone to share himself of his inner self. His only visible crying was done in the heavens.
But I cry. Mostly inside. Even during conflict….my next topic.

Tony WK

Men isolated

white knight — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 04:55:07 GMT

MEN AND THEIR AGGRESSION

I’m not naturally aggressive. I was bullied more than average as a child. I was larger than many of them. I was 93kg at 17yo and joined the RAAF where I mixed it with real men.

I learned finally that the only way in a male world to equalise the playing field is not to report them, not talk about them but to front them as aggressively more than they showed…like two lions. I began self defense classes and weightlifting and vowed I’d never get taken down again. That was the theory. In 1977 I joined the prison service as the youngest prison officer in Victorian prison history, just over 21. I soon got to use my skills to defend myself. After 3 years there my brother left this world. In obvious grief I was challenged by a prisoner and we fought in his cell. I was severely beaten but not finished off. I asked him why he didn’t go the whole way…”because you didn’t bring a mate with you”. I’d finally met my match. Welcome to aggression.
I recovered and returned to work and that prisoner gave me coffees all day long. We respected each other. One day I escorted him to hospital and was on guard. He cried as he told me of his crime and his hurting of his victims. Then it was all too much and we cried together. Funny now I look back, him handcuffed to the bed and I with arms both crying together. Why am I telling you this? Because we always had 2 officers. The other officer was sitting watching this go on. I turned and was wanting to know his reactions “bloody pussy’s, you are a sook Tony”. He 60yo me 24yo. I had to leave that job. The world of the mancho male, older men that wore their hardness like a medal given to them from their even harder fathers.
What I learned was that the most fierce man with immeasurable aggression was crying behind his mask. Pick your moment with men to assist them.

You “sooth” them. This is a time when you cannot question their actions, words, aggression or he’d explode in temper. This is a time when the best thing you can do physically is a hand on the shoulder, maybe a quick joke (“the last time I cried mate, I went through a box of tissues”) . Comments that of which put you alongside the man is best. “I walk with your brother” or “we’ll get through this together mate”. Sometimes its best from a woman to say nothing or “I’m here” with their hand on my forearm. And WAIT!.That's the key- wait. During the storm of sadness and crying there comes patches of bluesky. That’s when you talk.

Tony WK

Men isolated

white knight — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 05:19:23 GMT

SOCIETY OF SAND

I’m sitting in a desert
Upon sand of friend and foe
Can’t find a piece of turf
Where I cannot stand on toes

I collect a handful of grain
Then watch as it escapes
Just like some friendships
A barren temporary landscape

I create my own oasis
By weeping on a weed
But the sand around me laughs
Cause it doesn’t have a need

Till lately I wish it be the friends
That help me walk the land
Just holding me up under my feet
-supportive grains of sand

I begin to sink so slowly
As they gather my precious hide
The quick sand laughing so loud
A kind man says goodbye

And as I become one of ‘them’
My heart now granuled and dry
I try to weep to water the weed
But sand has no means to cry

Damn it! I struggle so
Be damned if I be like them
I crawl out of the society of sand
To remain the man I am…

Tony WK

Men isolated

james1 — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 05:22:20 GMT

hello,

Thanks for starting this thread tony. I'm commenting on your point in the first post about the men's motoring group.

So I feel pressured to be a "stereotypical man" - strong, able, sports, work, woodcraft, cars, firm, beer, no nonsense, boys nights..etc. This comes from my parents when they comment on how bad I am at sports compared to my other guy friends. It comes from high school lunch time talk about girls and female teachers. It comes from co-workers asking me about sports. It comes from me being embarrassed to admit I don't know how to change a tire and having to ask my ex's father to help.

Lots of small things that add up, each one questioning whether I am a "man".

Now, coming from an all boys' school with certain types of people, questioning whether I fit into the stereotypical male mould feels like questioning my sexuality. At school, you were either super straight alpha male, or you were gay. My friends, and even my girlfriend, routinely joke that I could pass as a gay man. There's nothing wrong with this except that I'm not. I don't find it offensive, but I am hurt that my likes and dislikes are not seen as "normal straight man".

I am hurt when people joke that, because I like soft toys, I'm like a little girl. Because I like cushions and interior design and flowers, I'm not one of the boys.

Apparently, not even liking motorbikes can save me!

Men isolated

Birdy77 — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 05:23:47 GMT

Tony,

Hand on your forearm; "I'm here".

🌻birdy

Men isolated

white knight — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 05:25:17 GMT

Like many when in distress I'm thinking of my father.

He was a wonderful man. An old school type. Once I got to 8yo he never hugged me again. But my sister he kept hugging. She was 5 years my junior. When she got to 15yo he still nursed her. I objected "you are too old for that". To which my dad yelled at me "never criticize love Tony". But he never touched me.

TO KISS HIS TEMPLE

There were some things I knew as taboo
to express my love but to question who?
to touch the pale face of my dad back then
when touching taboo...when "men were men"

For boys were male and "you cant do that"
jealous of my sister and that is that
that man couldnt hug his son for how he was seen
nowadays if you hugged your son- well, you'd be relieved.

And so my dad the salt of the land
wouldnt touch me even by hand
he knew he loved me and I him
with a wink of an eye from under his brim

Then that day we all regret came along
where watery eyes was met by song
and there he lie with an eerie smile
I be alone with him for just a while.

As I stroked his forehead cool to touch
I raised my head automatically as such
to kiss his temple of which I dare
I knew his mind was well aware.

Of all the kisses I missed
they gathered together in just one kiss
finally as his spirit rose and went
he left his love and hugs were spent

I never craved again heart be blessed
that tradition of males their love expressed
a kiss on his forehead way back then
ended an era when "men were men"....

Tony WK

Men isolated

james1 — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 05:35:29 GMT

on that note Tony, I don't know if you've noticed but it's rare to see men give other men real proper hugs.

watch sportsmen when they go to celebrate with their mates, or even console them. The "hug" is actually a pat on the back or at best a series of multiple pats on the back. On the odd occasion where it's actually a squeezing hug, it's from side, shoulder to shoulder.

My mates do this too. It drives me insane.

Men isolated

white knight — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 05:40:51 GMT

Hi Birdy,

Re: Tony,
Hand on your forearm; "I'm here".
🌻birdy

You've been reading! That is so nice, just what Dr Tony ordered!! lol No, it does feel good. Why wouldn't it. And any man out there reading- hey guys, this is good, its support, subtle caring support.

James- thankyou for also opening up. I'll get back to that. I am now (sadly) 140kg of overweight but much muscle guy and I'm a fashion guru. My wife knows this too well. I comment on womens hairstyle, clothes, personality etc. My fav show is 100% hotter. It's a show about women that are a train wreck in terms of how much better they can look with different make overs. There we are my wife and I like we are on the side of a catwalk. It's great.

This is the emergence of the feminine side of the male that is battling against old fashioned male armour. Yes, they wont get it. They see a guy with a soft persona or liking what is traditionally a female like, and relate that to girly type- so wrong. Frankly it would anger me so much I would have to drift, I'm sorry if that offends but your strength is among your own and/or those that accept you...as the wonder you are.

Topic: fortress of survival- beyondblue is about such.

Topic: accepting yourself, the frog and the scorpion- beyondblue

Tony WK

Men isolated

Elizabeth CP — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 07:59:40 GMT

I am also listening Tony & James.

I think equality is a difficult issue. There will always be problems until we accept our differences. They are not bad they make the world a better place. I also think that there have been other things which tradition says males & females are different which are not true eg eg men don't cry, they don't need affection like women do etc. I also understand that certain activities are not done by 'real' men. A friends son took up hairdressing as a career but left after being constantly told he was gay. He wasn't he just chose a career not accepted by most men. Another person I know had similar response as he joined the Australian Ballet School. According to his critics' only gay men do ballet'. Everyone has the right to chose their own interests & career & not be restricted by other people's ideas of what 'real' men (or women) do.

Men isolated

white knight — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 13:32:20 GMT

Hi Elizabeth

Yes we have a long way to go to get to an acceptable level of freedom of men doing certain sports, hobbies, interests.

Take netball amd basketball. Ive always wanted to play netball. I couldnt dribble a ball!. But I dare not try to play netball. I found AFL too rugged.

Hairdressing is a creative challenging profession that a young man should be able to pursue without teasing.

Lets be clear, in the young male world peer ridicule can be harmful and alienating. Career or mates? A dilemma.

Thete are some advancements. "It takes a man to cry" is one. Gay men and women feeling free to "come out". Past homophonic men transitioning to acceptance of all.

Tony WK

Men isolated

Just Sara — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 15:36:02 GMT

Venus and Mars both (╥﹏╥) in private, but women can do it in full view of others without them blinking an eyelid. Men don't have this luxury 'yet'.

Men isolated

blondguy — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 22:31:56 GMT

Hi TonyWK

I have found some television advertising bizarre with the occasional commercial showing a female rolling her eyes and shaking her head at her male partner. These commercials have been approved by some major global and multi national companies purely to increase their revenue as the majority of retail shoppers are female.

At the expense of the male gender unfortunately

It appears we have a long way to go. Thanks Tony

Paul