topic When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard? in Staying well

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Just Sara — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 15:51:44 GMT

Today I've come across 3 posts where saying "No" has challenged them to the hilt. I don't know how many times I hear/read this from others. The beginning of my own 'No' journey was at 33 when my mother berated and threatened me for saying it. But I stuck to my guns and the rest is history. I'm still practising, but it's always hard.

I understand you don't need to feel the sting of MH issues to struggle with saying 'No'; it affects the best of us at times. Unfortunately though, it hits some harder than others.

I was afraid of not being wanted, needed or appreciated. In my world that was interpreted as not being loved. I became needy, clingy and a little passive/aggressive. (Thru resentment of not being given the same attention in return)

I was drawn to damaged partners who 'really' needed me. I'd make their life better thru my support, then they'd leave, have an affair or gradually pull away.

Is this an epidemic or what? And is it women who do this moreso than men?

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Lonelydan — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 16:13:49 GMT

Hi Sara, (missed you) I think this is a trait all (most) children of abuse suffer I’ve been there. It’s because I have no self worth. I’m underdeveloped when it come contact and relationships I’m always thinking I need to this or that for someone to like me. Or change my character to something else like a chameleon then I loose myself and I know they see straight for me. Dan..

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Lonelydan — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 16:16:15 GMT

See straight through me I meant to say.

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Just Sara — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 16:45:55 GMT

Oh Danny I've missed you too.

Thankyou so much for contributing. I know you get it. Feeling that you're wanted, liked and loved is a precious commodity. It can be soul destroying for a child especially to confront.

We feel so deeply; so all encompassing. How do we find ways to open up and share that wonder? And, with who?

Childhood for some was horrendous. Saying 'no' meant punishment, humiliation, trauma or being 'bought down a peg or two'. These were my fears..

I miss our chats hun...sigh

(I hope your new family's going great! Drop into the Trans Cafe' and let me know)

Lub, lub, lub...

Sez xo

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

geoff — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 16:53:06 GMT

Hi Sez, you make a good point, maybe with the men they are more reluctant to say 'no' for fear of prosecution.

I've often been asked to travel 2 1/2 hours and stay the night to see my 2 little granddaughters who I dearly love, which I have done for quite awhile before, but now I keep saying 'no', I hope they can come to me.

There are many times when I think I should say 'yes' but the bed is too uncomfortable, due to my hips, and I have to be careful where I walk.

Getting old you should learn to say no without explaining yourself.

Best Wishes.

Geoff.

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

startingnew — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:37:37 GMT

Following along with this atm. Something i struggle with all the time is saying no

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

white knight — Tue, 10 Apr 2018 07:51:14 GMT

Hi Sez

I think this topic is so apt. Geoff is right, the older you get the more comfort and consideration from others is needed. A comfy bed is essential.

I don't know about others but as my mother (now estranged) yelled and screamed "No Tony" at me so often, that the effect over time was permanent. My sister feels the same so it is a mutual reason we ended up phobic to more the disapproval than the word to be frank. Like you could never do anything right.

In terms of attracting the damaged partners Sez, I can say that had I been female and wanting a man I'd dread it. I've worked with men all my life in the defence, security etc and the stories they told of their ways of sowing their seeds made me realise its more common than we know, affairs behind partners back I mean.

Don't know the ratio cause women also can be unfaithful but my impression is men are more prone to it.

tony WK

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Just Sara — Tue, 10 Apr 2018 08:39:22 GMT

Hi Tony;

You bring up a very valid point using your estranged mum as an example;

"No!" can be wielded like a vicious barbed retort aimed at those in its path.

For those with mum's suffering a maladaptive version of Oppositional Defiance Disorder, (ODD) 'no' portrayed a series of confusing 2-ing and fro-ing which was later denied or justified.

1977 - my little sister was going to her first high school dance. Mum said ok in one of her 'out of body' absent modes, but on the night of her formal she screamed "No!" with such veracity my little sister was distraught.

They argued aggressively while mum hit and cursed my sister. It went on for an hr. Then out of the blue while I was nursing my sis's wounded soul, mum walked in and told her she could go. (1/2 hr after doors opened) Shaking my head as I remember...

The poor little thing had a blood red face/eyes and no dress to wear as mum forgot. It's those 'No's' that I remember in context with your sentiments Tony. Bloody cruel!

Hi Geoff;

You wrote;

'Getting old you should learn to say no without explaining yourself'

Abso-bloody-lutely! I laughed when I read it, then agreed to myself with enthusiasm. You're right of course Geoff.. we oldies need to say when we want others to do the doing as we're not able to anymore. A great point!

Hey Essen;

Yes you do struggle with saying 'no'. It's a work in progress though eh? Good on you for contemplating it too!

Thanks everyone for your input...

Sez

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

blondguy — Tue, 10 Apr 2018 08:43:25 GMT

Hey Sara

Good on you for writing this thread as after having low self esteem since I was little your thread topic is not only important but very helpful for any readers/new and existing posters on the forums.

Saying 'No' can take huge inner strength. I am in my 50's and only started to learn how to say the 'No' word with some confidence in the last few years....and its hard work

I had a very strict old school father and the 'No' word would have been catastrophic to my physical and mental health if I would have even just thought it let alone saying it

Thankyou Sara for bringing up this 'High Value' thread topic.....Good1

My kind thoughts

Paul

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Elizabeth CP — Tue, 10 Apr 2018 11:20:32 GMT

Difficulties saying no is not confined to people who were abused as children. I find it hard to say no. I feel guilty letting people down & worry about what others will think. I'm interested in ideas to help overcome this

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

blondguy — Tue, 10 Apr 2018 13:10:01 GMT

Hi Sara (excuse I for hijacking your thread for a moment if thats okay)

Hey ElizabethCP....I usually write short posts to stay on topic....My post was only my life experience...not anyone else's

Its only my humble opinion however low self esteem/confidence is a huge contributor where the inability to say 'no' is concerned no matter what the origins are

The inability to say 'no' is a deep seated issue that many people have....and not confined to people who suffered child abuse as you mentioned.

Thankyou Sara for the latitude

Paul

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Quercus — Tue, 10 Apr 2018 16:44:17 GMT

Hello everyone,

Another important discussion Sara, good stuff!

Tonight in therapy the topic of needing to appease and serve others came up. Part of this was the discussion we had about the effect saying no has on me.

I can say no. It just drains and exhausts me. Fills me with guilt and worry and a sense of failure so overwhelming that it has a tendency to morph into feelings of worthlessness in my head.

If I am not pleasing others I am a failure. A worthless human being. Logically I can see this is unrealistic and innacurate but this way of feeling is so ingrained within me.

Saying no.

Sticking to my own choices.

Standing up for what I want.

Putting my needs equal to others.

These are all things that seem to set me off. Even harder is people who have known me for a long time do not want me to change.

Why would they when I do what they want? The pressure to remain a people pleaser is enormous.

I don't have a solution yet. My temporary one is anger. I allow myself to be angry. Being angry lets me tell myself I don't care about the feelings of guilt and the pressure to appease everyone and avoid the conflict. Being angry allows me to let myself be selfish.

I know... This isn't healthy either. But I am trying.

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Elizabeth CP — Tue, 10 Apr 2018 22:51:52 GMT

Hi Paul, Your humble opinion is spot on however low self esteem/confidence is a huge contributor where the inability to say 'no' is concerned no matter what the origins are.

Quercus You have articulated exactly how I feel. If I am not pleasing others I am a failure. A worthless human being. Guilt and worry are a real issue.

Standing up for what I want. Putting my needs equal to others.

I struggle even knowing what I want at times because I've spent so much time fitting in with others. I often feel other's needs are more important that mine. It is also difficult because my core values are family & doing what I can to support & strengthen the family so it is hard to decide when it is appropriate to say Yes for the sake of living up to that value & when do my needs trump others. An example of this conflict occured recently. My DIL needed a babysitter for her son who is on school holidays. Her mum has gone away & someone else was unavailable so I felt obliged to say yes. I'd looked after him last Friday because it was too late to cancel when I realised my husband was ill & I'd been awake all night with him. I had to take him to hospital Friday morning & leave him there so I could look after my grandson. On Monday I'm still exhausted & worried about my husband so not in the mood for looking after a 6 year old but to say no would leave me so full of guilt.

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Just Sara — Wed, 11 Apr 2018 08:05:44 GMT

Hi Elizabeth;

You've proven that saying no is sometimes more complex than just self esteem and courage. It's part and parcel of situational stress and difficulties in problem solving.

You've described is a heart wrenching decision and I don't envy you at all hun. I absolutely empathise and hope everything with your husband is travelling ok.

Sometimes our roles are so task oriented, finding balance is an uphill climb. I think the term is 'caught between a rock and a hard place'.

The big issue here is making these types of decisions with a mind that's not equipped to deal with such tight spaces. Your intent was kind and generous, but nature can block good intentions with veracity when we least expect it.

Anyone reading would feel exactly the same; we're not super hero's but expect such things and berate ourselves when we can't do it all. Please don't be so hard on yourself ok. Urgent matters challenge us to find direction, so it's a one step at a time process. That's all that can be expected of you, nothing more.

Hi Paul;

I understand your points and agree that self esteem and confidence are important for standing up when required. Elizabeth has shown another aspect of saying no that broadens the scope of origin which I'm sure you can appreciate.

Hi Nat;

Obviously you're not worthless or a failure, otherwise you wouldn't be here with a badge of trust as a Champ. You seem to view yourself thru glasses tainted by an inability to see greatness in yourself. That doesn't equate to being 'less than' ok. It just means it's too hard to accept atm.

Growth needs time, practise and patience. You're developing a new sense of self while parenting yourself thru recovery. If those techniques are toxic, then the adult in you needs to intervene, just as you would if you saw a child in your family being hurt.

Everyone, there's a fine line between self discipline and self punishment. It can be a matter of perspective, habit and intent. There's always boundaries to assess; those can be crossed so easily with ourselves. Why?

Food for thought;

Respectfully...Sez

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Elizabeth CP — Wed, 11 Apr 2018 09:11:09 GMT

This thread has just become even more pertinent to me. Enroute to visit my husband in hospital I received a call from my son who was feeling very unwell. I suggested he ring the CAT team for help. Later he rang wanting me to babysit while his wife took him to hospital. In peak hour it could take up to 2hrs to reach him & I needed to spend time with my husband & find out when he is likely to come home. Saying no was essential but I feel guilty. He also needs me to look after the children while they move house next week. They need the help but I feel overwhelmed by everything else going on. How do you deal with these situations.

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Just Sara — Wed, 11 Apr 2018 09:49:46 GMT

Whoa! It just keeps coming Elizabeth!

Keep your focus ok. You can't be in 3 places at the same time; you HAVE to choose. I'm not inclined to offer an opinion because that power belongs to you.

As I've said, the Universe knows when our time's right for an opportunity to learn how to overcome adversity. Talk with your husband, he has a say in this as well. Talk to nursing staff or doctors to find if there's a window of opportunity to leave. If so, clear your calendar and plan ahead.

Make sure you outline any needs you have as a priority ok. And, stick to them! Self first... If you need a compromise, say it with confidence. "I can only sit for 3 hrs, then you'll need to find other arrangements. There's no other option at this time; I'm sorry"

If your husband needs you at his side, he needs you. Nothing more to add there. You've got to distinguish what your priorities are and identify needs vs wants. I hope this helps..

And please don't push yourself to exhaustion Elizabeth. You won't be good for anything if this happens.

Take care of yourself and good luck;

Sez xo

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Elizabeth CP — Wed, 11 Apr 2018 10:57:23 GMT

Thanks Sara, I guess I used my husband as an excuse to say no, but now have to live with the guilt feelings. Stress & exhaustion has been really affecting me since my husband became unwell so driving for over an hour in peak hour traffic to babysit did not appeal. Past history of babysitting these grandkids has made me very wary. My DIL is very unreliable, their house is always a disaster & she never returns when expected. I need to protect myself but it goes against my values

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Just Sara — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 18:57:20 GMT

Hi Elizabeth;

I'm a bit confused. Do you feel judged here? Why didn't you just tell me what was really on your mind instead of saying your husband was too sick to leave him? I actually got worried for you.

You used some pretty powerful words above to ask for help making a decision based on the original information. Now it seems you were embellishing. Is this right?

Please, I'm not telling you off or anything like that, so don't worry. I'm probably more interested in why you felt this was necessary. I understand telling your DIL this, but why us?

I'll leave this with you ok. I'm sure it's going to challenge you. Being open and honest as you have is genuinely helpful. It reflects how we all feel pressure to justify our need for time-out.

Have a great weekend hun;

Sez

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Elizabeth CP — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 23:15:31 GMT

I understand you were trying to give me the best advice based on the information I'd given. Sorry this last week with my husband being so ill has been really stressful & extreme fatigue has left me feeling very down & prone to over react & unable to explain myself properly. Your earlier reply was well expressed but unfortunately further triggered guilt feelings I"have no excuse for not helping my son & DIL I should be able to better prioritise my time to see my husband & help my son."I know this wasn't your intention.

My dilemma was that I needed to spend time with my husband & liaise with hospital staff to try to get him better. This episode has just reinforced my worry re my husband & likely impact on our life from now on including potential of him dying if I don't watch him & respond to health issues before too late. My husband is home now so my priority is clear. He needs my help until he fully recovers if he does. On the other hand I felt really guilty about not helping my son when he was unwell & I believed that others including my DIL would judge me as being a terrible person not prioritising his needs.

I don't think I should explain in detail the issues re my son & DILin this thread because it is off topic. I have another thread trying to get help /advice but haven't had any replies.

When is saying "No" necessary and why is it so damn hard?

Just Sara — Sat, 14 Apr 2018 06:00:45 GMT

Thankyou for responding so honestly Elizabeth; I really appreciate it.

It's tough when we're faced with decisions that force our hand one way or the other. Guilt, as I've said many times on this forum, is an absolutely useless and detrimental feeling. It causes so much confusion and doesn't address the situation except to avoid the decision itself.

I'm really glad we've discussed it here tbh. It's indicative of how wanting to say 'no' can cause such drama in our minds. I'm sorry you were triggered by my post, but grateful you've opened up about it.

I feel no animosity toward you or your 'process' because your honesty is a credit to you. It'll also be a great read for members who struggle with this type of problem solving.

Can you let me know which thread your posts are on and I'll pop in for a chat if you like. I'm sorry you haven't had any responses.

Thankyou again Elizabeth;

Deep breathe and go gentle on yourself ok...

Sez