topic Insight and faith in Staying well

Insight and faith

white knight — Mon, 08 Aug 2016 15:06:49 GMT

We all try, but how many of us with a mental issue can accurately gauge if we are well or the seriousness of our problem.? After all, our problems affect others doesn't it?

Are our partners/carers the better judge of our wellness?

I'd suggest they are with a proviso (a little on that later).

Let's take moods from the up and down bipolar disorder. When I am in a bad mood I feel angry at something or someone. To another person its a bad mood, an extreme of what would be classed as normal reaction. To me its none if that. Its something I'm angry about. Who is effected by the mood? My partner not I. In all honesty I don't feel my moods are extreme but too many people give me feedback so I can't deny it. But you can understand the struggle within. To believe others about your behaviour you think isn't extreme. Its a tough call. And I constantly question my own actions and words.

One exception with this blind faith of others account, is the alterior motive. I had a partner once that used my moods as a lever to justify her side of arguments. It seemed that possessing bad moods meant you forgave any right to disagree with opinion. Be aware if this for although extreme behaviour is all part if the bipolar package, you should not resign your rights to opinion.

We that need to jump daily hurdles in our quest for stability and happiness and crave for empathy from others should realise that our partners and carers need empathy also. It must be so hard for them to keep convincing us we are not being tolerable, easy going or fun. All the while we go about our life with no thought of how difficult it is for them.

Insight into our own Illness is not a given. Some don't have it. If you have insight you are one if the lucky ones. If you have empathy towards others for the tolerance they need to constantly judge our mood then you have extended yourself to be considerate and have placed much faith in your carer.

And that is a good goal, for you are returning effort. You are in fact a team.

It is not likely we can step in others shoes and see us from their position....hence the level of faith needed.

In most cases carers are better observers of our behaviour.

What do you think?

Tony WK

Insight and faith

Starwolf — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 02:11:46 GMT

Thank you Tony for initiating this thread. It does provide food for thought...

I agree that it all depends who gives the feedback on our moods and behaviour. If those at the receiving end are sensitive types and really hurt, they're likely to over react themselves. How objective can we really be regarding someone we are emotionally involved with ? Strong emotions cloud judgment. Objectivity requires distance to fully come into play.

It is true that our loved ones will be necessarily less involved than ourselves. After all, if we are stark, raving mad, we are at the epicenter of the emotional commotion. But if we are mad AT someone, they will then be dragged into it too. To what point varies, depending on the person's personality and stability.

If the same opinion comes from different quarters, it will need our attention. If insight comes from one person whose stability and objectivity we trust, it must be taken into consideration too.

In all situations, I think the wise thing to do is to wait until everyone has calmed down before debating the issue. Letting hindsight kick in is a good idea. How long this may take is also an individual matter.

Insight and faith

white knight — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 05:18:17 GMT

Hi Starwolf

Indeed sensitivity is a road block for us to overcome. Placing your pride on hold to pass over all judgement to your partner is a big ask. I've found that hard to do. This is the motivation for this thread.

essentially it means giving up some control to become a patient.

Your question about how objective a close person can be, I never thought of that. Persons further detached might have a clear view if any extreme behaviour of say sensitivity or mood.

Thanks fir your thoughts.

Tony WK

Insight and faith

Starwolf — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 01:46:34 GMT

I admire your proactive attitude. If you trust someone enough to be your carer/partner, you will also value their insight. But YOUR side of the story is just as important as you are both affected by the moods. They're necessarily perceived differently by both parties.

Stability is a difficult condition to achieve, much harder to maintain if extreme emotions are involved. There's a difference between being a patient and being patient. Patience on both sides helps. Patience with yourself, (acceptance of the bipolar condition) and patience from the carer, (acceptance that they are dealing with someone affected by a mental condition). This makes it easier to step back until extreme moods and emotions release their hold before considering/discussing them. This is what I mean by distancing, waiting till emotions subside to pass clearer judgment...a bit later.

Regarding this as team work is a great attitude, a credit to you. It shows your big heart and insight.

This challenging side of mental conditions makes us work harder than most at being a better person. That's why I consider those who thrive towards managing the situation as heroes...may they be sufferer's or carers.

Insight and faith

V17 — Tue, 08 Nov 2016 05:19:03 GMT

I've been trying to focus on staying well, hence me scouting these particular threads and came across your title Tony and have found both yours and Starwolf's responses are a good affirmation towards taking an objective approach.

I have not had a great deal of positive experience with a carer or partner when I am struggling. I push people away - I feel threatened when people get close to me.
Since my dark night of the soul, I've discovered through the help of my psych, that I have not fully dealt with the attempt a stranger made on my life, a physical assault (again by a complete stranger) and recently..the continual second guessing of a man who supposedly loved me. I am not sure I could not trust a person to tell me the gauge of my moods. I have my 16 year old son living with me and we are both trying to make sense of what has recently happened. Having said that though, I'm learning that healthy boundaries have had a huge impact on how I deal with the people close to me. I've allowed others to govern how I feel. This [ healthy boundaries] and taking 'time-out' allows me time to reflect on how I react. Personally, I have found that people who are not close to me have been the clearer to discern my moods. Maybe it is because I show more self restraint? Maybe it is because of humility? I'm a work in progress and don't have the answers..yet.
V.

Insight and faith

white knight — Tue, 08 Nov 2016 06:39:52 GMT

Hi V

My psychiatrist once said to my wife " you'll have difficulty deciding what parts of his behaviour is mental issues and what is personality. If you think its mental and its personality then he'll pay a price for being himself".

He was right. We are people first and with personalities second. We deserve the right everyone has to opinion and judgement that everyone else has.

Failure to receive common respect to have an opinion by those without mental or emotional issues is as hurtful as denying people of coloured skin a seat at the front of a bus.

Its that serious because we are being denied our freedom of having a view. To be told you must be depressed because you are angry at being spoken to in a certain tone is to take away your right to feel what you feel and added to that...you should feel what someone else is telling you how to feel.

This is likely the major problem we have in placing faith in a carer.

Btw, great you are using past threads for research. Its one of my hopes that threads assist others for reference.

Tony WK

Insight and faith

Starwolf — Thu, 10 Nov 2016 01:01:38 GMT

Hi V,

Each and everyone of us is a " work in progress". Is there anyone who hasn't been wounded and isn't in the process of healing ?

The mind is the conditioned response to whatever happened in our past. You are right, ex painful relationships often cause us not to let others get close for fear of getting hurt again. On the other hand, avoiding closeness and hiding in isolation only reinforce self-effacing inclinations and confirm the false belief that we are unlovable. Balance is an elusive state. Being cautious is wise but systematically pushing others away is not.

The fact that you can discuss what happened with your 16 years old is a credit to you both. You are lucky to have each other.

Well done also for working on setting boundaries. Your life wasn't given to you for being lived by proxy. We all need to stand up to trespassers on our territory and demand that they should leave our "ill-managed" life to us. Whatever the nature of the relationship, one person shouldn't be allowed to retain substance while vampirising the other into a shadow.

Often, the closeness of emotional involvement hides the forest behind the proverbial tree. Strong emotions can easily stand in the way of objectivity. It is easier to assess a given situation if we can consider it from a distance than if we are immersed in it. Being able to step aside when we are is a challenge. This is why hindsight reveals so much. Unfortunately is usually comes too late !

Insight and faith

white knight — Thu, 10 Nov 2016 01:54:39 GMT

Hi starwolf,

You just blew me away with that reply.

Thankyou so much

Tony WK

Insight and faith

Starwolf — Thu, 10 Nov 2016 02:41:45 GMT

Today, I have been feeling like a jaded "old fart".

So thank YOU for this timely reminder that I can still make sense... regardless.

Insight and faith

V17 — Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:44:00 GMT

Hey Tony, Hey Starwolf

I'm finding it difficult to get my head around some stuff and have been left feeling confused. Not by your posts, just relationship stuff. So, I've come back here to re-group. I'm a little bit all over the place and need 2 sentences clarified? Is that okay?

First is this one, Tony..
..."If you think its mental and its personality then he'll pay a price for being himself". I don't understand the 'paying the price for being himself" part??

The second one is this one, Starwolf..
..."Whatever the nature of the relationship, one person shouldn't be allowed to retain substance while vampirising the other into a shadow." Would you be able to elaborate on this further for me please?

V.

Insight and faith

white knight — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:27:22 GMT

Hi V

What my psych meant was that what often happens is that our personality traits can be quirky, different, uniquely ourselves and an over thinking partner or carer can interpret such behaviour as elements of mental illness.

"To pay a price" he meant that where ever I turned my mental illnesses would haunt me. Claims of "its your illness" if unwarranted can pop up regularly and I'd be constantly defending myself.

Eg. When I work hard in the garden I work very fast. A partner could interpret that as being manic and want me to get my medication changed. But I work fast because I don't like heavy physical garden work and strive to get it over with so I can do my hobbies

Tony WK.

Insight and faith

V17 — Wed, 16 Nov 2016 01:20:35 GMT

Thanks Tony - I appreciate you getting back to me on this.

I've recently discovered I had been in a relationship for the past 4/5 years with a man who is narcissistic. I had thought that it was all my fault for how I was acting. I'm beginning to see why I have been like I have. Things are making a whole lot of sense now.

V.

Insight and faith

white knight — Wed, 16 Nov 2016 03:09:47 GMT

Hi V

It's great I can help out.

i have a narcissistic mother. I haven't seen her for 6 years and never will.

But it all fell into place when I read extracts if a book called "walking on egg shells"

Dr Christine Lawson describes it best on google. So google...

Waif, queen, witch, hermit.

Youll be surprised.

Tony WK

Insight and faith

Dreamwish — Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:47:44 GMT

Hello

Sorry to butt in, this is an intriguing and thought provoking thread, thank you for creating it Tony.

I have a question I've been dwelling on recently and with a lot of self doubt and no confidence I'm hoping someone might have an opinion they'd like to share on it.

My question is, does your therapist (if you happen to be seeing one) tell you that you have insight into your illness, or is it something you feel within over time and just know about yourself? I question this in myself because before therapy I didn't have a clue that my behaviour and thinking patterns have all stemmed from being abused and my never ending struggle to "stay safe" or "play out" roles and situations that I had been through as I thought they were normal. Everything I've ever done, the choices I made, the interactions I have with people and myself are all because of how I've been treated in childhood, what I grew up believing from a very young age. It was quite shocking for my therapist to basically tell me mostly everything I do is because of an underlying belief I hold and thats why I do it, not necessarily the conscious decision I tell myself.

I'm sorry if I'm not making much sense it's really hard to explain. For example I have ocd, I tell myself it's because I hate germs and dirt and don't want to get sick but it's really about subconsciously staying safe in my environment and having total control as I had no control in childhood. As I know that now, is that having insight? Even though I know this is why I do it, I am not willing to stop my ocd, I'm not willing to test the "unsafe" just yet, maybe in time.

My partner can tell me if I'm being hysterically angry over small things, and I even know myself (afterwards) that my rage and hysterical emotional outbursts were not balanced with what happened at the time, that it was actually a symptom of my ptsd coming out, I can see how my behaviour was extreme but other times I cannot see and I believe it was applicable (being paranoid etc), am I good at insight or not?

*sigh* how I'd love to turn my brain off for just a day to have some peace and quiet.

dreamwish

Insight and faith

white knight — Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:03:48 GMT

Hi Dreamwish

good question. In my opinion those with any mental illness that have insight into their behaviours due to their MI will only have so much insight, not all. If they want a full picture of the ramifications of their behavior they need to rely on professional medical people or their partners/carers. That takes faith and faith cant be used against you in a relationship. Arguments will often have the comment "I'm angry because your bipolar behavior is why you treat me badly" and so on.

Back to insight. It's all about if you are 'aware' of your surroundings and others reactions. Is it obvious when you don't fit in, or people don't visit, or members of clubs leave you out of the loop? The problem with groups is the same and likely worse than a partner reacting as above.

Google, Topic: so what are their mental illnesses?- beyondblue

Google Topic: ostracized, who's fault is it?- beyondblue

Humans can be cunning and in denial. Some might well know their behavior isn't within the bounds of normality but if they get a suggestion there is a problem then they quickly deny for their own reasons. So they might have insight but prefer to tolerate their life without the medical processes. This can mean in worse cases, that they leave controversy where ever they go.

Then there are those with no insight at all. They are sometimes so ill they aren't aware of their illness. I'm no expert in these fields, its just my experience talking. I was a prison officer for 3 years and dealt with all sorts of people with and without insight.

If you have insight then you are conscious of your illness and the effect you have on other people. But bare in mind, your personality has a right to be expressed and your illness is a part of you that is nothing to be ashamed of. As pointed out in the threads listed, many people have variations of mental illness that at times never gets revealed.

Nobody is "normal" is heard a lot....I'd prefer to say "everyone is normal but some need help to keep on track".

Tony WK

Insight and faith

JessF — Thu, 17 Nov 2016 00:14:32 GMT

Hello Dreamwish, my personal feeling is that insight is only half the battle. Knowing why you think or behave in a certain way is not usually enough to extinguish that if it's unhelpful, and in some cases I think it can become an excuse. For example, having poor relationships over and over again, and instead of trying to repair those relationships falling back on "well, this always happens because I had bad parents with a bad marriage, how was I supposed to learn?" . Knowing that how you think and feel now is just an echo of a distant past can be helpful, but it still takes some work to make changes in the here and now.

Insight and faith

Starwolf — Thu, 17 Nov 2016 03:19:51 GMT

The substance Vs shadow aspect of relationships, particularly applies to those where one person has narcissistic tendencies...or is overwhelmingly dominant. Due to their own issues and hidden insecurities, such types need to assume control over a vulnerable victim. They need to feel in charge...at all cost. Guilt inducing, manipulating, belittling etc...Sometimes the abuse is only emotional, sometimes it is also physical, even sexual. Their vampire like behaviour sucks a victim's power away in order to strengthen their own.

Ideal victims also have personal issues, lack of or shaky self identity, self-worth, self-confidence etc.... A narcissistic person will work on gradually, persistently eroding whatever is left of that. S/he will thrive on the "challenge" and enjoy winning resulting battles and confrontations. And winning s/he must.

Insight and faith

V17 — Thu, 17 Nov 2016 03:55:09 GMT

Thank you so much for elaborating on this Starwolf, seriously - it's been a great help. V.

Insight and faith

Cornstarch — Thu, 17 Nov 2016 04:09:18 GMT

Sooooo true Star!

The only problem is that unfortunately feelings of unworthiness and self-doubt are in all of us. I don't care how successful you are, sit on a meditation cushion for 5 years and it will reveal itself one way or another!

Therefore it is not just people like us that are vulnerable to being sucked into their controlling vortex, but all people are. Yes, in lots of ways we are easier victims in that we've already been primed, but if you chip someone long enough they will begin to question their goodness and self worth.

If a person has no prior experience with this sort of a personality style they will become extremely defensive at the suggestion that their partner may have narcissistic tendencies. They will cut friendships or point blank decide within seconds that 'I don't like you', because they're not ready to question the authenticity of the intimacy they have experienced with them, and it makes them angry that you dare doubt it.

Insight and faith

Dreamwish — Thu, 17 Nov 2016 08:18:10 GMT

Hey Jess

thanks so much for replying, and I totally agree with your post! Having insight is only half the battle and I think once someone has some insight it can really help them in changing the negative behaviour, or at least start to question the legitimacy of the behaviour and think "Mmm why am I really doing this?" but yeah knowing is one thing but actually changing is much harder. I made my partner go to therapy to get help with his issues and he was diagnosed with a serious personality disorder, which he says he felt somehow during his life that there was something not quite right but never said anything but I was honestly in total shock when I found out and wondered how on earth I never saw how *different* he was and I've been with him for 6 years. Maybe I was in denial or just blind or really stupid the whole time, maybe I can't trust my judgement of people, I was gutted after finding that out. We both didn't have much insight at all. So its something I really want to work on - gaining more insight and making changes. Thank you again Jess you made a valid point and I'm in total agreeance.

dreamwish