topic --->>> Psychopaths&Pathological Liars <<<--- in Staying well

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SourceShield — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 13:10:41 GMT

Hey,

I'm taking a break from my studies for the moment, by sharing what I am studying and researching at the moment.

Keen for opinions, and reflections.

At the moment we are looking at Pathological Liars.

What do you know of this condition?

Can you understand how we would see this as a condition?

In the past, we have punished "the liar"!

And perhaps...rightfully so?!?

Who gets to be judge, and jury?

And why?

Do you understand the anatomy of a lie?

Lets discuss.

In my home, we learned that telling lies, sometimes kept us safe.

Sometimes, telling the truth, still got me a hiding!

So telling lies, became a negative-positive phenomena.

In other words, lies - the negative, kept us safe - the positive.

Have you ever experienced something like this in your life?

If the act of telling lies is normalised it can become a condition - a pathological condition!

The Cure...well for me anyway!

Just start telling the truth...start with oneself, and people that one trusts - Could be many, could be just one trusted friend.

My friend, Tricia, once told me that...You Only Need At Least One Friend In This World.

And, I believe that too!.

More is nice.

But trust is the key.

The door is ones soul.

We are the guardians of the Soul - The Mind, and the home of the Spirit - The Body.

Now, Im getting a bit metaphysical...are you into that?

I am.

But, that can be rather intense for many...

...because it involves looking at the whole picture - The Holistic Self.

We consider this to be the TRUE WAY to complete health.

Just stop me if this is of no interest to you though...

...I could write about this stuff...

...forever...

...and ever...

Amen.

What do you know about psychopaths?

Did you know that......they only make up 5% of the population...

...but actually contribute to 50% of the crime in this world?

Thats why I am doing what I am doing - in terms of my studies and research.

Not completely but a big part of it.

My research has 4 main branches.

I'll discuss that at another time.

But - Psychopaths, cost us all a lot of money!

Did you know that?

But...they are sick.

Some say incurable.

I am autistic.

They say that is incurable.

Some autistics are high functional, some are not.

Some psychopaths are 'functional', and 'some' are not...at all!!!.

We, as a society must address this in a serious way...lets discuss!

Or, not...'cause I'm gonna study the stuff anyway.

But I enjoy healthy intellectual-debate and conversation.

Peace.

MuchLove.

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SourceShield — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 13:24:21 GMT

p.s.

We now recognise 'Industrial Psychopathy' as a condition as well.

An Industrial Psychopath could be seen as, the office gossip...that climbs up the business ladder, by spreading malicious lies about another colleague, right up to bullies, and people that vilify...and because its on a spectrum...we go right up to corporate psychopaths.

This is what American Psycho, the movie, starring Christian Bale...was about!

Funnily enough, we would recognise, Donald Trump, as a Industrial Psychopath!

And, I am happy to discuss why...if you dont already know!

You may have met an Industrial Psychopath...

I have now,but thankfully, only a couple of times!

How can we as a society address this?

"To keep the body in good health is a duty... otherwise we shall not be able to keep our mind strong and clear" Buddha

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Just Sara — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 20:34:14 GMT

Hey Esse'!

Don't you mean Sociopath? I thought pathological lairs and bullies were in this category. And you're right about the industry connection. There's plenty of studies out there re workplace bullying, harassment, discrimination and intimidation. Case Law would be a good place to start your stat's.

Psychopathy is a really interesting field. I saw a doco by an american researcher who was 'driven' to seek biological evidence in psychopaths. He got permission for blood work from many serial killers including Charlie Manson and identified a gene..I think it was X47 or something like that (from memory)

Anyway, this man tested himself and found he had the gene. Mind blowing!! (Speaking of metaphysical) It gave him a baseline to continue his research and was invaluable in determining pre existing behaviours in (mainly) young boys/men.(Gender stat's)

The blood test helped to determine Nature vs Nurture influences as well. (He was given a stable and loving home environment growing up, but still had characteristics like anti social behaviour) He interviewed family members on camera who stated they always knew there was 'something' about him that wasn't 'right'.

So the evidence is there Esse'; it's just a matter of putting it together. Are you doing a thesis or similar? What's it called?

And you're right...not all sociopaths and psychopaths live in gaol cells or tall buildings named after them. So there's a 'gap'. Fill in the blanks and you have a qualitative and quantitative research plan.

Good luck with it all K...

Kind thoughts...Sconnor xo

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SourceShield — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 20:41:06 GMT

Hey Sconner!

Psychopathy and sociopathy are different cultural labels applied to the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder.

This disorder is more common among males and mostly seen in people with an alcohol or substance abuse problem, or in forensic settings such as prisons.

Psychopaths tend to be more manipulative, can be seen by others as more charming, lead a semblance of a normal life, and minimize risk in criminal activities.

Sociopaths tend to be more erratic, rage-prone, and unable to lead as much of a normal life.

When sociopaths engage in criminal activity, they tend to do so in a reckless manner without regard to consequences.

Which is why we are looking at Industrial Psychopaths...their a lot more organised then their sociopath counterpart!.

Peace

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SourceShield — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 20:44:45 GMT

p.s.

But YES - you are right...we are looking at both!

TBH - I just used Psychopaths&Pathological Liars as the heading...because I like alliteration!

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Kazzl — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 20:51:40 GMT

Hiya Kaitoa - I had reason a few years ago to look into how to deal with workplace psychopaths (there's loads of them in the public service). Anyways, for what it's worth, I found the Harvard Business Review a good source. Not academic, but well researched and useful for case studies. It's online now.

Cheers

Kaz

xxxx

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SourceShield — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 20:52:29 GMT

My thesis is actually on Creativity - What is It Good For?

I feel and believe that we can use Creativity as a therapeutic model.

As mentioned my research has 4 main branches.

I am looking at creativity from the viewpoint of...

Creativity and Sustainment

Creativity as a means of Personal Expression

Creativity and Freedom

Creativity and Enterprise

So, with Creativity as a therapeutic model, I am looking at 4 main groups.

Sucrose-Sugar Addicts

Psychopaths and Sociopaths

People with Autism

Repeat Sexual Offenders

And, the other branches, also have their own sub-groups that I am looking at as well.

The truth is I tell people that I will be done by 2020...but this is my Academic Life Work...may take my whole life to complete.

But, I am okay with that!

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Just Sara — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 20:53:25 GMT

Thanks for elaborating Kaitoa!

I love this stuff too. Clarifying the difference for me was great. Intellectual info-speak...you blow me away!

Sconnor out! xo

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SourceShield — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 21:01:52 GMT

Hi Kaz,

You are are very right!

There are LOADS of them...and they cost us all, a lot of money, every year.

For many that have been harassed and bullied at their workplace, this can be incredibly traumatic, and has a flow on effect for the rest of society.

We need to find ways to identify before they get too 'comfortable' - though there are many that are actually the boss of the company!

And thats much more worrisome because...they 'condition' their workers to think and behave in the same way.

Its a dog eat dog world...etc etc etc...

Hence why many capitalists...have now gone over to the dark side!

We have war-mongers and other death-mongers...people that benefit and profit big time from war, killing, and keeping people sick.

This, I feel, must be something that we address in a more intelligent and mindful way...otherwise the likes Putin and his cohorts...will end up ruling the world!

p.s.

I hope youre feeling better Kaz!

MuchLove

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SourceShield — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 21:06:00 GMT

Hey Sconner,

Anytime!

I love chatting on that level too!

And thank you both for the good leads re: things to read up and research!

p.s.

Glad to see you back Sara C!

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Cornstarch — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 21:13:43 GMT

My father was a pathological liar. Narcissist, sociopath whatever you wanna call it!

The problem is that they very, very rarely find it hard to get a partner.

Generally they hook up with an empath. A person that is so generous and empathetic that they feel sorry for them.

Now they are excused.

If their empathic partner is successful, well liked and has influence this person will be enabled to the extreme. Splashed with materialistic generosity and defended as simply 'misunderstood'.

They are masterful at finding a sweetie who ironically turns into an enabler!

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SourceShield — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 21:26:47 GMT

Yes, Corny!

Thats one of the really unfortunate parts of it all...is that they will 'groom' people, sometimes their own children!

They do tend be be incredibly charming - again that is one of the main differences.

The Psychopath...are charmers.

The Sociopaths...not at all!

The Relationship-Psychopath will seek out 'empathic' people as a partner, for many reasons, but one of the main reasons is...the empath, act as a sort of 'beard' - a cover.

And, as youve mentioned...once they have groomed their empath, the empath then defends their psychopathic partner.

We see this in many women, that defend their psychopathic and abusive partner, abusive on many or just one level/s, it doesnt matter, for this we go to 'lawyer' speak...and look at intent!.

The thing is, as mentioned, they are 'costing' us...and putting in place strategies for all people to learn and really get familiar with...so raising awareness...about these types of personalities, or more-so, these personality disorders, is now crucial.

For the safety of others...and for our collective pockets as well.

Some sub-cultures, reward the psychopath and even the sociopath, and it so ingrained in them to do so...that they would think that this conversation is ridiculous, just as the battered wife defends their partner...so too do the 'groomed', they will defend their psychopathic boss...

Its vicious.

Dangerous.

And, must be looked at and considered more seriously, by all of us.

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SourceShield — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 22:29:21 GMT

Hey Sara_C,

I did answer your question re: thesis and what I am writing about as well.

Took a bit to upload...Im guessing because I mention sexual offenders etc.

But the post is there now.

Happy to discuss, Creativity, anytime as well!

Peace&SavouryScones!

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Just Sara — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 22:39:37 GMT

Corny and K;

Well said both of you. Funding for programs addressing domestic violence is usually aimed at the victim. There are programs for offenders, but it relates to behavioural issues and is on a volunteer basis. This alone isn't enough.

Identifying pre dispositions in youth might be beneficial, but stigma would be something to look at. Grooming is certainly a problem. The charm you talk about is so relevant especially re sexual abuse.

New personality disorders continue to be identified adding to the list. Now they're compartmentalising existing disorders to create even more new 'labels'. I worked in a psych hospital some yrs ago and was given some really great PD info by a psychiatrist. I've still got it.

He told me that assessing someone and giving them a diagnosis is so complex due to grey areas, it's sometimes a matter of guessing or picking the one that closely matches. It's for this reason finding appropriate medication/treatment plans can be tough.

In regards to psychopathic and sociopath behaviour, there's many grey areas there too. I don't envy you Kaitoa, generalised descriptions have relevance, but individualised case studies are also important. I suppose there's a spectrum there too?

Just wondering...

Sconnor xo

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SourceShield — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 23:03:57 GMT

Scones,

You are so right on so many points there!

1) We have been focusing on the victim, and rightfully so...please dont get that twisted.

We must still offer as much support and awareness as we can, for these people...but I do feel that as a society, we must look at the 'shadow' areas of society as well...that means looking at the perps, and asking - What can we do?

The prisons are full...with perps.

The hospitals and psychologist seats are too...with the victims.

And yet there are still...possibly millions and millions...of psychopaths and sociopaths and pathological liars out here, doing their thing...My question is - How can I use creativity to bring about greater awareness?

And, you are so spot-on re: predisposition!

Thats one of my new fave areas to look at.

2) I'd love to learn more about your time working in the psych-hospital.

Curious...thats me...always curious!

What we are now beginning to recognise is that 'old-school' psychology...sadly, isnt working...in these areas, like you write, the 'grey areas' - How can I bring about change and improvement using creativity as a tool?

3) Again..spot-on! - One person's psychopathy can look similar, from the outside looking in - the generalisations...but look much closer, and we have to take into account the nurture...or, perhaps the specific mal-nurturing of the individual.

We must take into account...chemical balance - different for us all.

We must look at...a few things, and so...

Yes - there is a spectrum.

We all tell 'lies' and manipulate i.e parents manipulate children all the time "Do THIS or else...", is a form of manipulation.

Sometimes, manipulating others, can keeps us and them safe.

So, we would all be on this spectrum...but at the other end, which is the 5% end, you have most of the crime happening in this world.

For so few people to be attributed to so much 'crime', this must be addressed from all levels...legislation, right through to educating kids at school (using appropriate languaging of course!)

It is a mammoth task.

Wont change overnight but its time for a revolution.

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Wednesday — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 23:14:14 GMT

Hi all,

Thank you, I am enjoying your discussion.

People hire people like themselves, employment criteria can be skewed to employ someone that would not get the job and so on. So it is no wonder that if you look at the top ranks of the public service you can see a distinct pattern.

Like Kaz I have a public service background and thought I would share one particular story, though there are many. One handsome, smiley man was an assassin. He was excellent at grooming those above him or he needed to believe that he was amazing while systematically destroying the staff underneath him. As a disclaimer I never worked for him but saw the damage he wrought not only with staff, his EA had a serious medical condition, no sympathy for her she was just manipulated out of her role and ultimately the organisation. He also didn't know his business (despite a very high salary). He overruled those that did have the knowledge and made some horrendous decisions that he then buried. He also groomed some people, that went on to copy his behaviours.

After around five years the damage was showing and even those above him couldn't ignore his behaviour anymore. He was informed that his contract would not be renewed. He of course fought back and negotiated a good package for himself. To appease this man he was sent to a prestigious overseas University to do an equally prestigious masters degree, all paid for by the organisation. I know people from that time that can no longer work and suffer from PTSD and depression and others that he left with no option other than to look for other roles, often with their reputation in tatters. I can still see that big toothy smile and the warm welcome I received, because I was at arms length had a role that although junior to him was influential.

Good to know that by reading your thread my instinct to avoid him was the right one.

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SourceShield — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 23:52:35 GMT

Hey Wednesday,

Thank you for this account - confirms a lot!

Glad that your instincts were right, and also saddened that this creep, got away...with so much, and then was rewarded, by the organisation.

That disgusts me - TBH.

Its like the paedophile priests etc, that are merely 'farmed out' to other parishes...even though the church knew what they had done!

Its disgraceful and the fact that big-time corps, and the church - BOTH of these institutions, still hold much sway in our society...but its disgraceful that 'we' have allowed this to have, for as long as we have.

I do write 'we' because now, I feel that the whole 'blaming and shaming' thing...does just give the perp more ammo to use..."I was made this way", "No one understands the pressure" - so we have to look at ways to diempower the perps.

I know that in our society we look at self-empowerment..as being one of the greatest aspirations for us all...but I feel that some, must now be...disempowered!

But, how do we do this in an intelligent and effective way, to both minimise the after effects for the victims, and minimise the platforms that these perps have?

Just asking questions...I dont have all the answers, but I am glad that others here feel that this is something that we must address more seriously, as well!

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Wednesday — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 01:07:34 GMT

Hi Source,

Have you read, The Course of Love - Alain de Botton? In his book he makes a comment that I loved, forgive my paraphrasing. In the future when people first meet, the first question they will ask is 'what madness is yours'? This will be answered honestly, without embarrassment or hesitation, it will be an ordinary and an expected question. I loved the book for this comment alone.

I also heard an interview with the scientist that Sconner mentioned, it was fabulous. What stayed with me was that he did change his behaviour to suit others around him. For example he made sure to offer his wife her glass of wine first. Although this was a small thing it made a difference to his wife (and others) and she said she didn't know what he was doing but she loved it and to keep it up. He said it made no difference to him because he didn't really care. I can't decide if this made him more manipulative or was just a useful way of him getting along in life. He also told another story of putting his brother intentionally in danger because he wanted to do something.

While I want people to be accountable for their actions I get a little stuck. If a brain is malfunctioning, doesn't have the right bit developed and the person cannot understand right from wrong and lives on the border or outside societies rules, are they truly accountable. Intelligence isn't always a guide either.

What is societies role? Are they accountable if unwell? Do we go back to institutionalising people, did it help? I shall have to mull this over a little more.

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SourceShield — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 01:24:03 GMT

Thank you, Wednesday!

And, let me clarify - When I write of 'intelligence' - I am actually referring to 'Holistic Intelligence' - and not just the old model of IQ smarts, but emo-intel as well as other modes of intelligence, that many indigenous cultures have been asserting for eons...maybe not that long, but many cultures in the world actually deal with all this really well.

In our 'modern society' - we still like to over-analyse and over-process.

But, there has been benefit with that as well...modern neuroscience has made huge breakthroughs of late.

I do believe that taking the lead from many indigenous cultural examples, is a way forward for our society.

Im really big on harmonious-balance!

I have not read that book, but have heard of the author...will look it up.

Thanks for that reference.

The point you raised is the point that I was stressing in the first post...I am autistic - untreatable brain.

But, I can still live as a 'functional' human being.

As Sara_C pointed out...psychopaths are born with a very specific gene.

Known as MAOA (monoamine oxidase A), this “warrior gene” controls the production of a protein that breaks down brain-signaling chemicals like dopamine, noradrenalin, and serotonin, which all influence mood.

But the idea of a “psychopath” gene remains controversial.

People with a variant of the gene, called MAOA-L, produce less of the protein that breaks down these signaling chemicals, which in turn causes them to build up.

An excess of these chemicals, scientists believe, leads to impulsive behavior (such as as hypersexuality), sleep disorders, mood swings, and violent tendencies.

When you consider this, the idea of us all being on this spectrum becomes more relevant.

Especially those of us that have suffered at the hand of a psychopath etc.Those that have been groomed, mirror and copy behaviour - this is learned behavior, and can be undone...takes a lot of work but it is possible.

Reversing, Stockholm Syndrome, for example..it is possible. But those born this way...they do pose a different quandry.

I believe that I can use creativity as a means to 'get through'...just gotta work out how exactly......conversations like this, and others with colleagues of like-mind, really do help!

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SourceShield — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 01:54:46 GMT

If I could also extend what I was referring to re: Indigenous Cultural Examples.

I feel that due to the modernization of our societies, we have lost a lot of what actually worked, for the sake of a quick-fix.

i.e.

In many cultures they have rites of passage, granted some were rather barbaric, but we have lost this kin-ship in our society.

In the past, the wise elders, would be able to 'spot' the 'troubled soul' - and in many cultures, rather than punishing the young child, for being born that way...they were taken under the wing of an elder, that could best work with that troubled child - quite often, this child grew up to become a respected elder, and was able to channel their 'warrior gene' or 'warrior spirit', as a great hunter and leader.

Because, as mentioned, Trump - would be seen as an industrial psychopath, and yet...he is now the leader of a country!

So, and I know that this is moot - but some would argue that he is highly-functional psychopath!.

There are many cultural examples - Indigenous Aboriginal cultures and tribes, that deal with these issues, graciously, intelligently and respectfully.

Being a Maori New Zealander, traditionally Maori people also led by example in this way...it takes a whole village to raise a child, and all that.

I feel that globalization has desensitized us to the effects of the psychopath, because the aggressive A type personality, have been our 'leaders' - Hitler, Bush jnr, Idi Amin etc etc etc...

We now live in a world ursurped by apathy...its become too much for us, to cope with.

Why?

Because as you quoted from the book that you referenced, we have now become used to, and becoming ever more-so used to everyone elses madness - what is your madness? - but this has alse bred apathy.

Apathy is a killer.

Its inforced-apathy that can lead another human being to put a gun to someones head and shoot them, in the name of god and/or country.

Terrorism...is the ultimate form of sociopathy, and in turn apathy.

I feel that looking at how the neo-cortex, the home of empathy-network, is where we are heading, to help us better understand how we can move forward with this, and designing therapeutic models that take full advantage of where the brain is leading us, is an ultimate expression of holistic-intelligence.