topic Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts in Suicidal thoughts and self-harm

Theories on suicidal thoughts

white knight — Tue, 10 Oct 2023 04:07:00 GMT

One of my favourite psychologists is Jordan Peterson. He has hundreds of videos on Youtube. He mentions in one lecture that his belief is that a common reason for suicidal thoughts is that the person cannot tolerate the complexities of their lives. For us humans have hundreds of tasks every day and new ones coming along not to mention the stresses of financial struggles, bullying, separation from family and friends and possible drug abuse. And those can be the tip of the iceberg.

Perhaps to help ourselves we should lower that complexity by reverting to a pre adult simplicity. Reduce stress numbers by removing them. Toxic friends or family? remove them. Consolidate debts, draw up a financial plan so you have a better outlook in 12 months. And so on. Shape a +ve pathway.

I've long time been an advocate for replacing negative thinking for positive outlooks and plans. Reading posts here of how people are treated poorly at school (bullying) or their own negative thinking so inground they know no other way of thinking. Please allow me to guide you- there is no better transformation to a better life than realising your thinking is self destructive and to move towards a positive outlook on everything- everything.

You hurt your leg and you spend weeks in a wheelchair - think! you have arms and hands to write, to touch a loved ones face to show care... how lucky

You fail a topic at school, give yourself time to adjust to it then think! how lucky you can get education. Drop that subject, add another, we all have limits so accept it that it isnt a topic for you. Be realistic

You have an upset at home, go for a walk, focus on life, on the bees collecting nectar, the old lady carrying shopping inside (offer to help as helping others elevates your worth), feel the breeze

Climb a hill once a month. Sit in silence and watch the sun set. It will take 2 hours start to finish. Dont move. When I did this a small bird landed on my shoulder- how special is that? Appreciate the wonder of a sunset.

Occasionally remove yourself from your obsessions like study, mobile phones, games and "fun". Add to your life the addictiveness of life itself. It's right at your doorstep if you look.

Love yourself, your uniqueness.. there is no other like you.

So, are you hoping for a small change to your life? I wouldn't be happy unless it totally transformed your life.

https://wordpaint.com/prem/en/when_sunset.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X30sWycWz4o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgh08mZ355Q

TonyWK

Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts

mmMekitty — Tue, 10 Oct 2023 11:36:46 GMT

Hi TonyWK

Interesting perspectives, with some practical suggestions for small changes which can lead to better, healthier lives. I'm happy with making small changes - it's the numerous small changes (so small I don't know what they all were), which have brought me to be here & now, where I am.

I must say, my pre-adolescent years were pretty comples, & only became more so when I reached 12.5 years old. But I'm not convinced it was the complexity that was the greatest problem. I think it was that I had no agency, no say in what happened to me or in my life - where I went, who I was with, what I did, including school subjects, & how I was regarded... that powerlessness was what caused the most harm. It was my powerlessness which made it possible for harm to come to me, to be done to me, & which kept me silent.

I think, for young people, there is far too much pressure placed on their young shoulders, too many expectations, too little childhood. The easy access to the wider, pretty much un-moderated social media is a huge problem. As worldly wise as kids seem to be about social media, they are not psychologically mature enough to understand how they can be manipulated by these sites & some people who get on there, with intentions to cause harm, whether to bully or to exploit. &, unlike my childhood, it's 24/7. & exactly like gambling is addictive, so are the social media sites & games. I was astonished to realise how quickly i, as an adult, not even wanting the social aspect of many of the games, how I was becoming addicted - just to finish the next round, a goal, the next level ... up all night, neglecting my personal needs ... & like gambling, I wanted the good feeling of being a winner.

They also were a great excape, something I could 'zone out' for hours, not thinking or feeling the things I wanted to avoid thinking & feeling. Was brilliant for that.

But games didn't solve the problems.

It was only through dealing with the problems that I began to feel my life was actually not so bad... & getting better. I don't expect it will ever be pure bliss & without problems to solve. Nothing is more certain than change.

I wish everyone the best in their journey.

Hugzies

mmMekitty

Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts

snazzypretzel5 — Wed, 11 Oct 2023 10:23:31 GMT

These are nice words and great if they can be put into action. Sadly some people are unable to get enough distance from overwhelming feelings to be able to think of the blessing or good thing. I have experienced that myself, the inability to stop negative feeling/talk. I do believe to try to challenge our thoughts and not always believe what our brain is telling us, especially when it come to negative and dark thoughts, and maybe that is the only thing we can do. Hopefully if we cannot do it alone, we have someone who can help us to interrupt the negative things our brains tell us.

I have seen a psychiatrist who specialises in depression and neurodivergencies suggest we start the day with a positive thought for the day and that can help to stave off negative thought patterns.

So in a way I agree with your premise of thinking on the good side of life. I hope that there are many of us who have that support and opportunity to challenge our negative thoughts, stay our hand, take a breath, make a phone call.

Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts

therising — Sat, 14 Oct 2023 06:03:18 GMT

Hi Tony

I'm a great fan of Jordan Peterson, based on him being a bit of everything. He's part psychologist, part wonderer (when it comes to wondering about human nature), part philosopher, part fearless speaker when it comes to speaking some of the truths that can trigger a lot of people and he's so much more.

Simplicity is definitely skillful. At times it feels impossible to do, especially if we haven't been shown how to do it in the toughest of times and even in the most basic of ways. I tend to agree with Peterson in some ways when considering the idea that comes to mind at times and that is 'I just don't know how to do life anymore. It just feels too hard'. Would definitely be much easier if surrounded by people who'd say 'Don't stress, I'll simplify by managing some of these things in your life. You relax and just focus on those things' or 'I'll simply guide you through what's depressing or anxiety inducing so you never lose your way. I'll simply lead you, one foot after the other'. Stuff like that.

I can see a huge call for life coaches in the future. I'm talking about affordable ones, as opposed to the kind that cost an arm and a leg. 'This is how to do life under these/those circumstances'. In some ways the world of psychology is filled with life coaches, coaching people on how to deal with self limiting beliefs, coaching on how to better understand and manage trauma, coaching people on how to manage feelings, how to breathe more effectively, how to make better sense of how mind and body work together and how they can work against each other at times' etc etc. Coach, counselor or guide, no matter what form they take, their job is to simplify and lead us to greater self understanding and function.

There is an art/skill to meditating on bees, on the nature of people, on the feel of the breeze, watching the sun set and even meditating on life's gifts (the wink the universe gives us when it delivers a bird or butterfly to us in some beautiful way). Our skill level is seriously tested when there is the call to meditate/fully focus on such things when what challenges us the most threatens to steal all our focus. Masters only become true masters when put to the ultimate test in the most challenging of ways.

Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts

white knight — Sun, 15 Oct 2023 00:34:40 GMT

Hi the rising

So this simplifying our lives can have many dimensions. To assist those with suicidal thoughts (I've had them regularly since 21yo), to use myself as an example, these are the areas I've dropped off being interested in. No further than that, the areas I've deliberately allowed to fall away to help me cope with the things that matter-

Politics - I find trust a big issue here, both sides of the spectrum break promises are often poor financial managers and lack vision for things like defence, homelessness and indigenous matters
Gossip - my family fed their lives with gossip. Having moved away at 17yo to join the RAAF I soon learned that it was lacking honour and trust. It is usually non productive even destructive so I fight it causing stress
Beauocracy - I admit to now passing on all phone calls to banks, Telcoes etc to my wife.
Narcissism - psychological cruelty angers me so much I fight it to the end of the earth. Hence losing half my family but I have zero compromise
Pointless world records - someone doing a rubics cube at 5000ft while skydiving or eating 30 pies in under 10 minutes, might be my age now but surely being more productive and humble is the better course

But along the way I've taken more interest in things that I find fascinating-

Documentaries
Space and the JWTS and Hubble discoveries
Peoples feelings and safety
Camping

Note that none of the new interests involve stress whereas the first group can do so.

Another reason I like Peterson, he teaches young adults to be adults.

TonyWK

Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts

therising — Sun, 15 Oct 2023 20:54:06 GMT

Hi Tony

I think if we're sensitive enough we'll be able to sense or feel all the simple ways that work or don't work. To simply read the paper or watch the news doesn't work because it feels too depressing and stressful at times. To simply step foot into nature works. It feels like exactly the right thing at times. To simply sit and watch tv all day every day doesn't work, it doesn't feel good in the way of producing energy and a sense of achievement. To simply sit and watch the stars at night works because there is a beauty in that which can trigger a sense of awe, wonder and philosophy (things that can be felt at an emotional level). While to simply breathe may not be enough in times of stress, to simply breathe well can make some difference.

I think one of the greatest triggers for a HSP involves feeling all the systems that are not designed to be easy or simple. To feel the complex angering systems, the depressing ones, the questionable ones, the stressful ones and every other one can be highly triggering. My heart often goes out to the current younger generations. While being told 'You're too sensitive', what we should perhaps be asking them is 'What are you sensing?'. I imagine the overall answer may be 'We are sensing how stressful, angering, upsetting, depressing and far from easy the world can be'. While past generations have accepted the mantra 'Life is not meant to be easy', sensitive people ask a more than reasonable question, 'Why does or should it have to be this hard?'. Good question.

Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts

white knight — Mon, 16 Oct 2023 00:12:13 GMT

'Why does or should it have to be this hard?'. Good question.

If was cast our imagination back 150 years... in the scheme of things, human development it isnt long at all and prior to 150 years ago things were so simple, certainly more difficult in all ways but simple. Bartering with neighbours to swap corm with peas and our neighbourhoods were essentially only a few kilometres in diameter as was work. We'd don our only good set of clothes for going out or church and meet up with others. Trains had begun to connect the cities and that must have been incredible to watch.

So all those things you listed as being basic non stressful activities were there. The stresses them days, not knowing where the next meal will come from, poor housing, illnesses more unpredictable etc would have been a struggle, I wonder if those stresses were worse than now? I wonder if the suicide rate was worse?

From the www since 1910 male suicides have nearly halved and was only worse during WW2, females have stayed the same. IMO that proves life was more difficult in the much older times where the basics were worse. We are now flooded with options but the complexities of modern life as mentioned earlier by Peterson has placed enormous pressure on our human minds. I think its akin to how Australias indigenous community has been expected to catch up to white mans development and many simply cant adapt from their level of development (in some ways they were extremely developed) within a few generations. Our white man brain has also played catch up and some can, some cant. Those that cant need more of what you mention, those simple non stressful actions to find purity of mind where we are not actually thinking and less of the recordings of "your call is important to us please hold..."

TonyWK

Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts

therising — Mon, 16 Oct 2023 19:15:28 GMT

Hi Tony

I love philosophical discussions which involve and invite opinion, wonder, perception and more. I love how such discussions open the mind. To be a philosopher on our own can feel torturous at times ('Why am I here? What is my purpose? What is the point of life?'), yet to share philosophical questions with others becomes about sharing the greater or deeper questions. They can feel far less depressing when they are shared through a sense of wonder.

Socrates declared 'Man, know thyself'. While being one of the simplest quotes of all time, some suggest it points to one simple goal (with all its complexities), greater self understanding. It's suggested we are born to come to know our self. If we throw the challenge out to the whole human race, it becomes 'Mankind, know thyself as a species'. To know that we as a species thrives on simplicity, service to each other, fair trade, kindness, compassion and inspiration is good to know. To know that we thrive on a constructive sense of wonder, a connection to nature and adventure is also good to know. To know that we can be deeply feeling creatures and there is nothing wrong with that is definitely a handy thing to know. Gradually waking up to what we don't yet know can be a slow and challenging process. The fascinating thing is we are always waking up to something, individually and collectively. The challenge remains, 'Man, know thyself'.

Tony, I smile when I think of the most sensitive of people 'coming to their senses' so much faster than others. This doesn't make sensitive people better than others, just more tapped in. Coming to or into our senses can be about feeling what's right and what's not, seeing a future that relates to what works and what doesn't and hearing inspiration that comes to mind without thinking, such as when something says to us 'Give that person a smile' when we pass them in the street. The challenge may involve not thinking our way out of giving them that smile. How far simpler would life become if we had really good leaders who could lead us to a 'common sense' (a sixth sense), where we could suddenly begin to feel in all the right ways, see in all the right ways and hear in all the right ways? In the meantime, many are left struggling while feeling, seeing and hearing everything that's depressing and anxiety inducing or feeling, seeing and hearing no way forward. Those so sensitive (those able to sense so easily) can be left in a painful limbo, being judged harshly as 'weak', while in the process of fully coming into their senses. The thing is...such people are far more tapped in than the insensitive folk who declare them as weak.

Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts

white knight — Tue, 17 Oct 2023 01:16:09 GMT

The Rising

Re: " The thing is...such people are far more tapped in than the insensitive folk who declare them as weak". Facebook in particular (I'm a very regular user) highlights that men have a long way to go in their misdirected masculinity. As a man that has ventured to work in quasi law enforcement and worked with many over 40+ years, I find it intolerable some attitudes that men possess.

A fine example of like minded people was a inmate in the jail I worked when 21-24yo. I was beginning to write poetry which truly was a direct reflection of my dysthymia/bipolar/depression unmedicated then. Very emotional. I struck up a conversation with a fellow that was there due to fraud as opposed to any violent crime. We got on really well. Then my brother passed away using his own methods and when I returned to work I was certainly not going to share my grief with prison officers, no, not the most comforting individuals them days. I did however get a chance to talk to this inmate and share my pain. His only comment " Maybe this job isnt for you"?

Several weeks went by and I had another inmate pass away on my watch. I knew that night I was to resign that week. I spent the next 15 years sometimes thinking about my responsibility that night to that fellow, guilt personified until I wrote the following and immediately once written, I was released from all burden.

GREAT ESCAPE

I locked the cell door

To keep the crim inside

Didn’t really care much

About why his eyes so wide

He tapped on the trap door

To test I be a phony

Pity I didn’t have a chat

To sense that he be lonely

Then in the early hours

I felt there was dome fuss

For when I spy into his cell

He be no longer with us

I locked that cell door

To keep inside that crim

His only chance to escape

-when I turned my back on him…

TonyWK

Then my father passed and the similar thing happened. A delayed grief of 12 months or so until I wrote this-

TO KISS HIS TEMPLE

There were some things I knew as taboo

to express my love but to question who?

to touch the pale face of my dad back then

when touching taboo...when "men were men"

For boys were male and "you cant do that"

jealous of my sister and that is that

that man couldnt hug his son for how he was seen

nowadays if you hugged your son- well, you'd be relieved.

And so my dad the salt of the land

wouldnt touch me even by hand

he knew he loved me and I him

with a wink of an eye from under his brim

Then that day we all regret came along

where watery eyes was met by song

and there he lie with an eerie smile

I be alone with him for just a while.

As I stroked his forehead cool to touch

I raised my head automatically as such

to kiss his temple of which I dare

I knew his mind was well aware.

Of all the kisses I missed

they gathered together in just one kiss

finally as his spirit rose and went

he left his love and hugs were spent

I never craved again heart be blessed

that tradition of males their love expressed

a kiss on his forehead way back then

ended an era when "men were men"....

So, the poetry journey is getting to know myself - Socrates was right. So that sense of wonder of which you speak stuck a cord. Have you had anything similar happen to you?

TonyWK

Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts

therising — Tue, 17 Oct 2023 18:30:05 GMT

Hi Tony

Alpha males and alpha females in their purest form definitely challenge me in a lot of ways. I enjoy feeling gentleness and lightness to people. There's a sense of peace that comes with that. Alphas tend to have quite a 'heavy' and overwhelming feel to them a lot of the time.

With poetry, I believe it can be where the ego and soul can meet to discuss and find the deeper meaning in life. I used to write a lot of poetry. Not sure what happened there. Was going through years of papers in a major clean out last week and came upon some of my poetry from over the years. I felt how beautifully my soul led me to express myself. Tony, while you've been guided to express yourself in words, especially in such overwhelming painful and tormenting times, 'Great Escape' and 'To Kiss His Temple' both moved me deeply. Such incredibly confronting times in your life with such enormous emotional charges. I can feel elements of those charges within your words.

I've found a sense of wonder to be a life saver for me on many occasions. I believe a sense of wonder is the key to opening the mind. Without that key, the mind remains closed and fixed around so much of what doesn't serve us (like a lot of false and self destructive beliefs). Open the mind and such things are free to escape. Wonder once blew my mind right open. At the end of 15 or so years in long term depression, I was led to wonder 'If I am not my anger, my sadness, my frustration, my sense of hopeless, my controlling ways and all that stuff then who am I? If all those things belong to that creature known as 'Depression' then who am I without depression and its tormenting ways? If I am so much more than the name I was labeled with at birth, the age in which time measures, the gender that offers some physical abilities (such as with giving birth), the collection of beliefs placed in my head by others over the years, who am I beyond all that'. The short answer, 'I have absolutely no idea who I am'. That was 18 years ago, when I began finding out who I truly am. A sense of wonder continues to lead me.

Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts

white knight — Wed, 18 Oct 2023 02:17:51 GMT

Sense of wonder? Who are we? I think I've given up finding the exact answer to everything so default to the nearest achievable acknowledgeable point. Eg I'm into the JWTS and Hubble discoveries, that has provided me and countless people a sense of discovery not known to man till now, with a lot more to come. So I draw the line with 'the big bang' until they find something concrete.

Same with personal achievement, our purpose here. Rather than wonder about it, I suppose I'm a decision maker, leaving myself without resolve is stressful so, many years ago the "I'm here to help my fellow man" approach has become my home, my purpose. Although that comes with conditions like some members of society that inflict pain or selfishness.

So I dont like being left in limbo, there has to be a reachable goal for me. In a way I'd find not reaching a goal frustrating, of non fulfilment.

For many years I've written my prose to help victims of crime. For a long time before that I pondered on my poetry's purpose, a book, a personal book? and so on. So I wrote a manuscript that never was accepted for publication. Called "Black clouds Dancing" it was essentially a biography with 3 characters- me with sensitivity, mental illness and sadness, another character with hardened prison officer persona that bossed the 1st character around and a 3rd character which was the medicated 1st character. Character 2 the alpha male believed the 1st character was a wimp, the 3rd character kept the 2nd character at bay, disciplined, hidden. The book has many poems in it.

Then the victims of crime came about in 2006 when 2 young ladies had their lives taken by a parolee. He later passed away by police. Anyway the parents lost their two daughters. This one was to their mother.

THE HOUSE OF WAX

He was busy with the pouring

This old man’s name of Max

So I toured his workplace while he toiled

This holy house of wax

There were inventors of a kind

And starlets from the stage

There were master minds of talent

From another age

There were heroes of the wars

And leaders of a group

There were figurines of wax

From every allied troop

I stopped to admire him work

His name tag read just “Max”

“You really are a marvel

How you recreate with wax”

I focused on his one off mould

And marvelled when it set

This figure of a lady

That I’d recently had met

Her arms were open wide

as if about to fly

I asked a simple question

I asked a simple “why”?

Because she is cradling her girls

Even though you cannot see

It is the stance she had

When they were one and three

He continued to work away

As his making of a sign did end

And I was in total awe

Of a mirror image of my friend

He rolled out the final cast

To place at Shirley’s feet

This house of wax curator

That I was glad to meet

He placed the sign just right

This single cast of one

The sign read appropriately

“This is the perfect mum”...

You can see the purpose.

TonyWK

Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts

mmMekitty — Wed, 18 Oct 2023 11:11:20 GMT

Hello TonyWK

Your poem, 'The House of Wax' is a touching tribute to the wman, her kids & to Max, too, who so carefully made the wax figure of her. Thank you for sharing this poem with us.

I like the idea of your book & the characters.

Have you considered self-publishing, so-called 'vanity publishing?

Hugzies

mmMekitty

Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts

white knight — Thu, 19 Oct 2023 07:25:26 GMT

Thankyou MmMekitty

I'll be in the mood. I want to re-write it as it wasnt written in the "I then did this or that" but rather "Tony did this or that"... people told me it would be better written in "I".

TonyWK

Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts

therising — Thu, 19 Oct 2023 19:13:33 GMT

Hi Tony

Your poem 'House of Wax' has led me to tears. You've deeply touched the mum in me as I ponder so much of what it offers. While you offer the ability to feel so deeply for those who have lost children, you also offer a chance to consider what is perfect at times (a mother). '...as if about to fly' also offers a chance for me to consider so many ways in which my 2 children have liberated me and how they continue to do so.

It's my kids who have led me to wonder so much. They've led me to imagine more and believe less in what doesn't serve me. All the adventures we used to go on when they were younger led to the adventurer in me coming to life. If not for them and their need for service and care, especially in the earlier days, I'm not sure I would have found the patient me, the deeply caring me, the loving and compassionate me. They have liberated me by bringing so many facets of me to life, facets that I love about myself. I suppose the greatest thing they have given me is the ability to grow into loving myself, something I'm not sure I could have ever done without them.

I'm interested to know how you manage goals Tony. While a lot of people basically manage reaching goals, I need serious strategy. Based on the challenge of sticking to the path toward a goal, I just can't stay on track a lot of the time. Part of that comes down to me lacking self-discipline. How do you discipline yourself? Is there any particular self talk/inner dialogue that works for you? Do you have to work up enthusiasm sometimes and, if so, how do you do that? Do you channel the commander in you that dictates something like 'I don't care if you don't feel like doing this today, you're going to do it soldier or you can drop and give me 20!!!'? I think I'm more inclined, when I go off track, to drop into a down and give myself 20 reasons why I'm hopeless. Of course, I know I'm not hopeless. It's simply the dialogue of the inner critic. When it comes to life, it comes with challenges.

Re: Theories on suicidal thoughts

white knight — Thu, 19 Oct 2023 21:06:01 GMT

The Rising,

Producing tears means my poem was a success. I once had a WW2 veteran listen to me recite some of my 300 poems and he was crying all the time and kept urging me to read the next one. Bliss for a poet.

Prior to 26yo I was a negative thinker from a negative family and a over domineering mother. But at 26yo it all changed. I went to a lecture and that motivated me forever. Now its a case of being motivated most times except when in a mental "state" when that isnt possible and I accept that interruption.

This post tells of that day

https://forums.beyondblue.org.au/t5/staying-well/30-minutes-can-change-your-life/td-p/154525

Motivation

https://forums.beyondblue.org.au/t5/staying-well/motivation-search-and-rescue-it/td-p/38279

How I found my direction

https://forums.beyondblue.org.au/t5/staying-well/humility-and-quot-the-good-samaritan-quot/td-p/307504

The planning, short medium long

https://forums.beyondblue.org.au/t5/staying-well/planning-a-healthier-mind/td-p/171386

Loving yourself from being special to your children is so true. My eldest is wonderful, an ex math/art teacher pensioned off with PTSD, depression etc, her paintings are unbelievable. We are very close. By contrast my youngest 31yo is narcissistic she learned it by her mother. I was abused by that daughter for many years, teased and treated poorly. How would I ever get over that treatment. So 3 years ago when she messaged me again on FB for several days we chatted as usual when she came out of the woodwork, then boom, no reply. This was done many times to me over the years. So, I blocked her and the abuse would end. I read a saying- "I was too busy listening to your criticism of my faults while I overlooked yours" paraphrasing. This has a lot to do with motivation in that losing a daughter is a huge trauma to overcome for self protection. But cruelty I will not tolerate like triangulation. So making solid decisions is rarely a necessity but it is indeed warranted at times and motivation is a big part of that process.

TonyWK