topic Re: My mum has had suicidal "jokes" in Suicidal thoughts and self-harm

My mum has had suicidal "jokes"

David35 — Sat, 30 Sep 2023 10:22:12 GMT

Several months ago, mum made a joke about going to sleep and never wanting to wake up. Now I've had suicidal thoughts myself in the past, so it triggered me. I rang my brother for help, but he just suggested I stick her in a nursing home using my power of attorney. I sent an email to her GP to chase it up. In the depths of her drinking and despair, she would often say these things with sincerity, but now that I've followed up on them, she says it was just all a joke. She now resents me because she has to see her GP about it, which she's not looking forward to. For hours today, we argued about it, because she simply doesn't accept the trauma that it invoked within me. Eventually, I stopped her by going into detail what my thoughts were many years ago. She never realised. But even now, after discussing the trauma that it invokes inside me, she still doesn't respect my "mental boundaries". After all, everyone she's spoken to sees it as a joke. But none of those people have had suicidal thoughts in their past. So my question, is who's problem is it to deal with? Mine, to stop over-reacting to such comments when she's balling her eyes out and has lost all will to live. Or hers, to respect my sensitive nature. If I was a bit more thick-skinned, I may not have reported her behaviour to her GP. She is 77 and severely depressed and even though I am getting counselling which is helping, leans on me an incredible amount during her cancer treatment. I've tried to explain to her that it's a bit like a reformed alcoholic sitting in a bar, or a reformed smoker sitting amongst other smokers. To me, it's just not acceptable behaviour.

Re: My mum has had suicidal "jokes"

therising — Sat, 30 Sep 2023 19:53:06 GMT

Hi David

You raise such a good topic. There can be so much power in words. How 2 people feel the same words can be so extremely different, sometimes based on experience and/or beliefs. I think once we make someone conscious of how we feel certain words, there needs to be some form of negotiation in a lot of cases, largely out of respect and consideration.

While I imagine there may be some truth to your mum's words, do you think she's developed the habit of saying such things in a lighthearted way as opposed to saying them in a heavyhearted way? Do you think this may be one of the ways she's come to manage such depressing thoughts and feelings? For you, you feel such words with a heavy heart, based on your deeply caring nature and your past experience with the depths of depression. Btw, I've found it handy to say to people 'You know I can feel your words' or 'You know I can feel what you just said to me'. I can feel them bring/put me down or lead me to stress or agitation, just as I can feel other people's words raise me to revelations, inspiration or joy. When it comes to feeling the downshifts, more conscious people may inquire into my feelings and perhaps help me change perspective or they may come to choose their words more carefully around me. Personally, I will try to manage my words around others when I'm more conscious. Of course, I'm not always conscious. Some folk will feel the impact of certain swear words, so I don't use those words around them. Some will easily feel a put down, so I try to use words that raise the spirits. Some will feel the heavy elements of certain topics, so I try to approach those topics in a less lighthearted and more meaningful way. I don't think it's too much to ask others to be just as feeling toward us.

It's so tough at times David, being a sensitive person. It's like you can have people say 'You're so sensitive' (said as more of an insult) but what they fail to realise about a sensitive person is...they can sense. Not our fault we can sense. In a joke, we can sense an element of truth, like a eye dropper of dye in an ocean of water and we can feel that truth so intensely. What I sometimes find challenging, which I'm sure you can relate to, is others relying on our sensitivity in the ways we serve them yet criticising it when it doesn't suit them.

Maybe it's worth asking your mum why she expresses heavy stuff in such a lighthearted way. Whether she does it because that's how she copes with her thoughts and feelings or she does it so as not to bring others down so much, perhaps knowing why is something that may come to serve you.

Re: My mum has had suicidal "jokes"

David35 — Sun, 01 Oct 2023 00:46:17 GMT

I think you hit the nail on the head. It's an off-handed comment which I have "over-reacted to - as mum puts it" because I do tend to feel what people say. I think it's a coping mechanism for her. Even after dad died, I had a good neighbour kept complaining that I was too sensitive. It's a miscommunication that results in an element of trauma for me. I've tried to explain this to her, but it spirals into an argument. Mum is at the age where she is free to say whatever she wants with no regard at times for the effects on others. Unfortunately, I'm standing right in the firing line.

My brother is a lot like that double standard you mention. He enjoys the sensitivity I offer when listening about his job that he hates, but feels free to criticise me (and mum) because we've been struggling through her cancer journey.

Re: My mum has had suicidal "jokes"

therising — Sun, 01 Oct 2023 01:55:37 GMT

What makes you so incredibly beautiful David is your sensitivity, never doubt that. Must admit I've become a bit of a challenging gal over time, based on looking at my sensitivity in a whole different way 😊. I used to wear the label of 'super sensitive' as a mark of shame. I now wear it as a badge of honour, honouring who I am. When you wear it as a badge of honour, it can lead to a greater sense of self esteem and the ability to become more confrontational or challenging. For example, 'Why can't you feel what you said to me? I'm assuming it's because you can't sense exactly what it is you said'. I little sassy there. Even more sassy is when you ask someone else in the conversation whether they can feel that person's comment. If the answer is 'yes', then the sensitives win, 2 to 1. 😁 Always nice to know that what you feel is not all in your imagination. Super sassy is when someone says something and they insists you're being 'way too sensitive' and they even laugh at you. My response to that is 'Oh, so you can't feel words as easily as I can. Let's test that'. While they look super confident that nothing you say can impact them, pick a word or 2 that they seriously hate, say it/them out loud, watch their reaction and then say 'You see, you're sensitive too. We're like 2 super sensitive peas in a pod'. 😂 Yes, I'm a trouble maker.

Re: My mum has had suicidal "jokes"

smallwolf — Sun, 01 Oct 2023 11:32:56 GMT

hello and welcome.

this is a tricky one... at least for me. I have quite a dark sense of humor and there are some things that I will tell my psychiatrist (plus a couple of other people) and some could take as suicidal. But really it is a way of, or sense of release, of removing the pain that can be inside. In that sense it can be seen as a coping mechanism.

This is not a way of justifying what your mum says or does. Perhaps it is an opportunity to have a conversation with your mum about what these words mean to you when you hear them.

Hope some of this help.

Re: My mum has had suicidal "jokes"

David35 — Tue, 03 Oct 2023 10:28:16 GMT

Yeah I never realised how powerful words can be. I'm not sure why. Some of the most traumatic things in my life have been what things people have said to me. Like when I was struggling to find my way rehabilitating myself after a brain injury had prevented from pursuing an engineering career. And when arguments became heated with my brother he would resort to "Oh just get a job mate!". If only he knew how hard I had tried. A few words, but a lifetime of hurt. I think the same level of trauma has occurred with mum. I've spent every day trying to be there for her, only for her to seemingly dismiss all these efforts with a few bad taste jokes.

I know I'm cursed with being sensitive. Others get along fine in this world and have thicker skins. But I've always been like it, which is probably why I hid in engineering textbooks. I know she didn't mean to upset me. But for some reason she did and it's something I've had to learn to deal with. I bought this book "Just one reason" which helped me a lot to put my thoughts down on paper. And the one reason I found funnily enough to live for, was to ensure mum had some company in her old age.

Re: My mum has had suicidal "jokes"

therising — Tue, 03 Oct 2023 17:47:16 GMT

Hi David

You really are such a beautiful person. Your family has no idea how incredibly lucky they are to have you as a gift in their life. You know, when someone says '____ is the black sheep of the family', I can't help but ask 'Are they super sensitive?'. When someone says 'Yes, how did you know?', I get so excited and start asking about their abilities.

Do they have a powerful imagination? Are they able to see the way forward through their imagination? Are they a seer?
Do they often hear what comes to mind from out of the blue, such as 'You have got to help this person'? Are they a hearer?
Can they feel another person's deep emotional sufferance? Are they able to feel words that are delivered to them, both wounding words and inspiring ones? Are they a feeler?

Very exciting stuff, to have a seer, hearer and feeler in the family (a 3 in 1). The hard part comes down to such a person not being raised to see, hear and feel strategically. So, here you have a person with gifts who isn't trained in how to use those gifts. Training or skill development is a must, for a seer, hearer and feeler experiences both ends of the spectrum, from the most inspiring end to the most depressing end and everything in between. So, it becomes a matter of how to make better sense of and manage the worst things you can see, the worst things you can hear through inner dialogue and the worst feelings you can feel.

I can feel that comment, 'Just get a job mate!'. Not sure whether what I'm feeling is anger or anxiety. Perhaps a bit of both. Sounds so simple, hey. Kinda like 'No worries, I'll just magically get on with things quite easily, through what feels like one of the worst, most confusing and most challenging times of my life. I'll do it based on how I've done it before. Hang on a second, I've never done this before!'. I think some folk lose sight of recovery being a full time job in some cases. When it does feel like a full time job (with a mental, physical and even a soulful sense of recovery), so much easier to do it with a lot of help, guidance and compassion. For a seer, when all they're able to see is a blank screen regarding the way forward, it can become depressing. For a hearer, when all they're able to hear in their mind is stuff like 'You're hopeless. You're pathetic. You're so broken' and so on, it's soul destroying. For a feeler, when all they can feel is what 'trying to manage challenges alone' feels like, it can feel unbelievably painful and lonely.

Re: My mum has had suicidal "jokes"

Eagle Ray — Wed, 04 Oct 2023 08:10:27 GMT

Hi David,

I just want to say I really empathise with your situation. Others not living with what you have had to live through with a brain injury can really fail to get it. I also agree with what the Rising says that having a capacity for sensitivity and feeling can be a great quality and strength, not always valued by others.

I’ve had similar struggles with my own brother to what you describe with regard to the “get a job” comment. Last year I went through a really rough patch, the toughest of my life and was struggling 24/7. I tell him very little of the struggles I’ve had, but I eventually shared that I’d had some quite severe anxiety and depression. The response I got the next day was an email with nothing in it except a link to a video entitled “Attention Whore”. That’s what I got for getting up the courage to share how much I was struggling and I know more than ever now my brother is someone I can definitely not share safely with. So I really get how hurtful your brother’s comment was. The very people we would hope to receive love, support and understanding from are not always the ones who can provide it.

At the moment I’m kind of doing two things:

1) Working on reaching a state of radical acceptance that certain people and situations are the way they are. There is likely nothing I can do about that so letting go of hoping for those things to change and instead focusing on what I can change and being around people I can be myself with, who accept me for who I am and who are kind.

2) Learning to truly value myself and give no value to the views of others who are selfish, arrogant and emotionally insensitive. I’m learning to see certain behaviour for what it is and name it as such. I’ve turned to nurturing and protecting myself which has started to buffer me against abusive behaviour from others. I’m finding as I get stronger and start setting boundaries, others are finally starting to get I have boundaries. I care less what other people think now and say no to people a lot more often.

As far as your mother’s comments go about wanting to go to sleep and not wake up, I think it is fair you have raised that with her and pointed out how it affects you. Even if it is a joke, if you’ve indicated how and why that is triggering for you, she should be respecting that. Even though she may have argued with you about it, the fact you’ve raised it may mean she at least thinks about that over time. Your Mum sounds a bit similar to mine. I remember getting up the courage to communicate to her about how certain behaviour of hers was affecting me. She screamed at me “what rubbish”. But a few days later I got a phone call in which she said “Sometimes mothers say things that are not that helpful”. That’s the first time she ever acknowledged her bad behaviour.

You may find it is a process over time of establishing boundaries more strongly, and bit by bit they start to get there are certain things you won’t tolerate. Often their behaviours are habitual and they’ve got used to acting out a certain way. I’m finding the more I find my sense of self-worth from within, and the more I protect and care for my inner child that wasn’t parented properly by my actual parents, the more others’ behaviours are less relevant. But I know it’s not easy, especially when you feel everything so much. But that sensitivity is your gift and absolutely worth taking care of and nurturing.

Re: My mum has had suicidal "jokes"

smallwolf — Wed, 04 Oct 2023 09:57:50 GMT

What your brother said to you sounds is one of those "101 dumb thing to say to...". And when it comes to the hurt, there is a song by Tim Minchin that references how words can be stronger than swords. I agree with this ... one something is said, it cannot be undone.

People have said dumb things to me also. But I also learn what I should or not say to these people.

One being sensitive... I noticed you mentioned it as a curse. I am a people pleaser and said to my psychiatrist - this was a long time ago. In the same conversation I said my brother was very self-centered. I spoke of being a people pleaser in a negative sense. And then I was told about the positive qualities of being like that. I would say to you there are also positives in being sensitive. (Just as there are positives and negatives in being self-centered.) If you did a google search for

positives of being sensitive

I am sure you will some things that are related to yourself.

Re: My mum has had suicidal "jokes"

David35 — Thu, 05 Oct 2023 12:39:47 GMT

To therising,

I think you're right. I'm definitely a feeler. I can feel the pain others are which is why I can support mum during her cancer treatment, but it wears you out. It can also highlight people who do need your help. I donated some lunch to a begger the other day. He wanted money and I could feel the desperation in his voice. I'm definitely a hearer too because I have lots of negative self talk that has plagued me over the years. Sometimes I can read too much into things though, which can be a problem. And as for recovery, there really is no rule book. We have schools and universities but nothing to teach you how to overcome a head injury, how to support someone with cancer, how to remain optimistic,etc. I guess there are books but nothing prepares you for the simple lack of care in society with friends, family and neighbours. That's a hard one.

Re: My mum has had suicidal "jokes"

David35 — Thu, 05 Oct 2023 12:50:29 GMT

To eagleray,

Your brother sounds very ignorant. Mine is at times, although he is getting better. I told him how the therapists have uncovered a level of trauma with looking after mum, and I think my bro relates to that because he's seen so much trauma in his job as a cop. I've always wondered why we put so much weight in some people's opinions. Sometimes we value our relatives opinions more, but as I've discovered they can be just as ignorant. If someone criticises me, I think to myself well is that true. If I don't think it is then worthwhile listening to them. I think its the doubt they put in your mind that is unsettling.

At my worst, dad used to say " he just doesn't want to work". But the reality was that my cognitive abilities declined as a result of my head injury. It wasnt his fault he thought thus way. Once I was diagnosed though, things were different. So ignorant people can be educated. Usually only people with open minds.

The other thing is that hurt people often try to get rid of their own hurt by hurting others. I firmly believe this. But they never do. It's good your mother apologised though.

Re: My mum has had suicidal "jokes"

David35 — Thu, 05 Oct 2023 12:53:15 GMT

Yeah you can listen to people's concerns who are often ignored by the rest of society. My bro too is very self absorbed. There is nothing wrong with pleasing people as long as you're not taken advantage of. It's often a fine line to walk.

Re: My mum has had suicidal "jokes"

Eagle Ray — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 05:32:47 GMT

Dear David,

I think we probably value our relatives opinions, especially those of our immediate family of origin, because it’s where we first establish a sense of self in the world. We initially depend on that family of origin for our survival, so their opinions feel like they really matter. If they seem hostile or rejecting in some way, it can really affect us. I totally agree with you that others lash out when they are in emotional pain, and that pain may have nothing to do with us, yet we become the target.

Sometimes they eventually get something of the struggles we’ve had, like your Dad starting to get your experience and the diagnosis making a difference. I started to suffer 2-3 horrific migraines a week from the age of 13 and early on I heard my Dad say from the kitchen that he thought the migraines were all in my head, as in made up. As I lay there in debilitating agony and going through hours of vomiting I remember I just wanted to thump him. A couple of years later he had grasped they were real. But having what you are going through being invalidated by family can be the most hurtful thing. Sometimes they just don’t get it.

I think anything that affects you cognitively is very hard to communicate to others. It’s invisible to them and the challenges are difficult to convey. I think the important thing is to maintain kindness towards yourself. You know what is real for you and it’s ok to look for the supports you need. I say that as someone who is often not able to ask for support, but I’m learning how important that is and that it’s part of self-care.

I hope things settle with your Mum. It’s definitely a challenge when you are in that caring role. Remember to really take care of yourself and make some things a priority for you that are just for you, whether it is your woodworking or something else. I feel like it’s really important to still have your own life, interests etc happening, perhaps especially when you are a carer. Take good care,