topic Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem? in PTSD and trauma

Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Rowen13 — Wed, 05 Feb 2025 20:03:09 GMT

How do I know if a friendship is worth it? I told my online friend that I really loved and cared for him as a friend. He told me he liked and cared for me.

After knowing him and sharing my darkest moments and secrets, it hurts that the emotional/energy level is not reciprocated.

I know I have an anxious attachment style and my last girl friend never loved me back either. He knows about this and I have explained how much it hurts and how I worry that the same friendship dynamic is repeating.

l'm tired of always being the one that cares more? Should I try to care less or just cut ties with my friend and move on? I'm aware I can't control his feelings but I find because I am going through a difficult time in my life already..it's really affecting my self esteem and mental health.

He says he wants the friendship but I wonder if it's better to just cut ties and work on my anxious attachment style. So I can find a friend that I don't continually chase and the emotional investment is more equal.

He use to reply and text all the time and now everything I say seems to irritate him and he never initiates contact. I try to get him to see the friendship is already over but he always repeats that he is fighting to keep me in his life.

I know in every relationship that someone always feels more but after everything we have shared and the level of trust I put in to letting him see the "real" me...it just hurts that I know deep down that I am disposable to him and all the time spent and conversations meant nothing.

Opening your heart and being vulnerable and feeling undervalued just hurts.

I know I am the only one keeping the "friendship" alive because, that's not a friendship at all.

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Eagle Ray — Thu, 06 Feb 2025 00:19:01 GMT

Hi again Rowen13,

What I’ve found is the healthiest friendships usually happen when both parties have developed a sense of themselves and their own centre/groundedness. So they are not reliant on the other person’s responses for their sense of worth or value. The friendship still involves care and respect, but there isn’t a need for constant validation or definite types of responses from the other. Validation is still important, but when we have established more of a centre within ourselves we are not constantly seeking it from others.

In friendships in the past I was usually the person other people clung to and this was a repetition of having a mother who clung to me to get her emotional needs met. I thought it was my job to meet the other person’s needs while remaining invisible to myself. I would be very focussed on making sure they were emotionally ok. I’ve since learned this is co-dependent and that I was attracting people who were clinging to me in a dependent way. I was feeding this pattern by constantly responding to their needs and interests.

In the case of your friend, it sounds a bit confusing because on the one hand he is saying he is fighting to keep you in his life but you also feel he is not responding to you and you feel undervalued. Do you think he is just trying to find a good boundary in the friendship at the moment where he’d like to still be friends but is feeling a bit like there is stress in the attachment? Do you think letting go of needing validation from him may actually open the way for a healthier balance? Sometimes when we let go of trying to control a situation, that’s when the situation starts to work out.

On the other hand, perhaps you have different levels of need for emotional sharing, and while you have shared a lot about yourself perhaps this is not his style of communicating? People can be quite different in what they feel comfortable sharing. It may not mean that he cares less about you, but he doesn’t have the same style of relating through sharing a lot of feelings and emotions.

It may not be a case of cutting him out of your life as a friend, but perhaps realising that he may not feel able to respond to you in the way you would like. You may still be able to share certain things as friends but maybe not in the way you feel invested in it at present. It can help to have a few people in your life as each relationship brings a different dynamic and is enriching in its own way.

I have just a very few friends now and I have left all co-dependent patterns behind. The friends I have now are kind, gentle people where there is an ease in the connection. In all cases we know we are fully responsible for our own lives but still get benefit from having one another to talk to and share with. For example, one of my friends had a recent health diagnosis and reached out via email because she felt the need to chat. So we’ve been chatting back and forth and I’ve been as supportive as I can be. But both her and I know it’s her thing to work through just as I have my things to work through. But we can still give each other moral and emotional support.

So I think the answer is finding your own centre and then relationships with others will feel less anxious and precarious. As you become more at ease within yourself, relationships with others feel more at ease. It can take a bit of time to break old patterns but it’s incredibly liberating when it happens. You realise you have so much agency to find your own peace and happiness while also having healthy relationships with others that are kind and supportive.

I hope that makes some sort of sense? 🤔 I think we have to become a genuinely good friend to ourselves which really helps our friendships in the outer world. It also becomes much easier then to detect which relationships with others are healthy for us and which may not be so healthy, and orient ourselves to the former.

Kind wishes,

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Eagle Ray — Thu, 06 Feb 2025 01:00:29 GMT

P.S. I just thought I’d add that the vulnerability you feel around attachment is really normal given the history you’ve described on your other thread, so please don’t feel bad about it in any way. It’s where working with a good psychologist/counsellor can be helpful who has a good understanding of attachment issues. If we have complex childhood trauma we are often still desperately finding ways to feel safe and those impulses can drive our attachment behaviour. My pattern was, if I can help and support others they might not hurt me and therefore I might be safe in the world. Sometimes it’s a case of identifying what your particular pattern is trying to do in order to change the pattern. I realised my pattern was bringing me less safety, not creating it, and I had to come back to myself and actually really see myself for the first time. I’ve had to learn to nurture myself and be the healthy parent for myself that I didn’t get growing up, and that is where I’ve started to really clearly see and know healthy attachment.

All the best,

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Rowen13 — Thu, 06 Feb 2025 02:31:40 GMT

Hello ER,

My little fountain of wisdom hehe. Only half joking I find you to be an invaluable source of advice and pearls of wisdom.

I have extreme anxious attachment which I'm trying to research and address on my own due to the fact that I can't afford therapy. I think because of my anxious issues I want a deeper connection to him than is impossible. Once upon a time for 6 months he would text me daily and that helped to soothe my hurt inner child. Patterns change and now he doesn't feel the need to text me daily (not a healthy pattern anyway) but it has made me dependant on him. Now that crutch has been taken from me and I can only feel his distancing as rejection due to my childhood trauma. I also feel very vulnerable because our communication style is different and I have given up all the goods, so to speak. I feel so naked and vulnerable now emotionally, knowing he knows so much about me and I know a lot less about him.

I was stupid and put all my eggs in one basket. Of course I only had one egg but still, feel really dumb and rejected.

I am 50 but hurt like a child. It's only my second day of not reaching out to text and I miss him. I wanted to mean something but I am not his world. The grown up in me understands this, but the inner abandoned child feels like throwing up or fainting.

He knows about my anxious attachment and abandonment issues and sometimes I feel he is punishing me. But perhaps he is just more mentally healthy and independent. We are polar opposites and he is pure logic and I am pure emotion. I feel threatened by the imbalance and every fibre of my being is shouting at me to cut him off before he abandons or hurts me more. I'm already embarrassed that I love him (as a friend) and he likes me.

It feels safer to cut him off...just to feel safe again.

If I could go back in time I would never of lowered my walls so much, given him so much of my heart...if I knew I was just another person he likes to help. I guess in some stupid way I wanted to be seen. I wanted to special to someone.

I can't keep reaching out to him, it makes me vulnerable and I rather learn to live without the friendship than chasing someone whose emotional investment doesn't match mine.

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Eagle Ray — Thu, 06 Feb 2025 04:23:28 GMT

Dear Rowen13,

I understand very well what you mean about understanding at an adult level but still having the inner abandoned child strongly reacting. There are a few therapeutic approaches that may help to read about. One is Internal Family Systems developed by Dr Richard Schwartz. It involves understanding all the parts of ourselves including parts exiled through trauma that can act autonomously because they are not well integrated, which is a common issue as part of a childhood trauma response. The goal is to bring the parts into an integrated whole. Another approach that partly draws on this method is Dr Janina Fisher’s TIS approach - Trauma-Informed Stabilisation. Another one that’s used where there is strong emotional dysregulation in relation to attachment issues is Dialectical Behaviour Therapy. I know less about this and have never done it, but it apparently builds skills in distress tolerance, emotion regulation, interpersonal effectiveness and mindfulness.

Please don’t consider yourself stupid. You are doing your best and you were trying to invest in what you thought would be a fruitful relationship. I wonder if you can just allow yourself to pause and reflect and figure out what your feelings and emotions are telling you. It’s often good to do this before acting. Contacting someone daily could be a bit much and while he may initially have been ok with this, it might have felt too much to deal with on an ongoing basis. This is where it can help to develop skills in becoming our own carer and support rather than heavily relying on another. At the same time we absolutely still need people contact and it’s how our system regulates, but it’s finding a healthy dynamic where that is happening in a balanced way.

The polar swing between a strong attachment to him and the impulse to cut him off is often what occurs when emotional dysregulation is present in relation to attachment. When you come more into balance, you don’t feel the need to go to extremes in either direction. The work is building an inner sense of self that is calm and grounded so you have less strong reactivity and you can come back to homeostasis. Somatic work can be helpful in relation to this too and I’ve had a lot of benefit with a method I’ve done with my psychologist called Somatic Experiencing which works in a gently titrated way to rebalance the nervous system.

So there are quite a few potentially helpful approaches. As mentioned previously, doing a search for bulk-billing psychologists or ones with low fees may be worthwhile. It may mean Telehealth but I do my sessions via Telehealth and it works fine. It’s really important it’s someone you gel with and feel comfortable working with, so I would not settle for working with someone if it doesn’t feel right. If you go down this path, it would be good to find someone well versed in complex trauma and attachment issues.

One thing that can help with all these struggles you’ve been experiencing is just really slowing down, as often the mind can be racing and you can be clutching at straws trying to solve things in quite an intense way. But just slowing everything, pausing and allowing yourself to sit with and connect with your feelings, sometimes you then connect with your intuition as well as becoming more grounded, two things that are very complementary. The yoga you are doing may help with this.

Learning to tolerate our sometimes distressing emotions is a skill but it is possible to expand what is often called “the window of tolerance” in psychology. When we’ve had highly emotionally dysregulated parents, it’s a lot harder to know how to do this. We haven’t been soothed by our parent and they haven’t known how to soothe themselves. Perhaps think back to the baby you mentioned caring for in your other thread. Imagine yourself as that baby and that you are soothing and comforting her, helping her to feel safe and regulated. Often we have to go right back to the beginning and care for our small selves, and little by little we grow and heal.

Take good care,

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Rowen13 — Thu, 06 Feb 2025 08:47:18 GMT

Hi ER,

Damn you are good lol. I must admit you understand my reactions/responses to our friendship a lot better than he does, or I do for that matter. The extensive knowledge you have is impressive to say the least.

You are spot on, I went to our communication medium to end the friendship for probably the 20th time since we met but after reading your reply, I deleted my exit speech. I understood I wasn't crazy and maybe there was a reason behind my manic response or extreme knee jerk reaction to abandonment and emotional discomfort. I love this man as a friend and simultaneously feel threatened by my feelings for him. I almost resent him bringing out these feelings in me which is ridiculous because no one can control your emotions.

I know my bombardment of texting, although mutual was a soothing mechanism. Of course it would only be temporary before I had to have my anxious attachment style soothed once again.

Because he's put up with all of this, I feel a mixture of embarrassment and shame. Unfortunately I have anxious/avoidant style attachment...I know I'm a real gem lol. You literally have to be a saint to have me as a friend.

I will look into DBT, I have heard about that and Somatic work but don't have extensive knowledge of either. I'm trying not to be so emotionally disregulated and fear I have killed the friendship anyway. I get so frustrated that after being continually exposed to my manic rantings he continues to stay. Unfortunately he knows that I constantly try to get him to leave me so I can get him to make my narrative true. That I am not worthy and everybody leaves me. He's on to me...

I just feel such emotional distress but know I have to learn to be vulnerabl, learn how to self regulate and self soothe.

But I also feel I am the toxic person in this relationship and want to protect him from further pain. He won't accept I may not be mentally healthy enough atm to have a friend. There are other reasons and honestly I am torn because I am trying to be respectful to all parties involved. I will be honest and say I am also trying to protect myself emotionally and unfortunately can't fully explain the situation in this platform. So it's taken my peace of mind lately, trying to figure out how to proceed.

Thank you ER...you have been a Godsend to me.

Take care of you 😊

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Eagle Ray — Thu, 06 Feb 2025 14:43:33 GMT

Hi Rowen13,

I think that's a good response to not rush into ending the friendship but just let things be for a bit and see how things go. Sometimes pausing and giving something space is what enables new insights and an ability to reflect rather than react.

I realise I got one of the approaches wrong above. It's called TIST not TIS - Trauma-Informed Stabilisation Treatment. I was just looking on Janina Fisher's website and she says how the idea is to learn to neither react nor suppress emotions and communications from parts of self (e.g. troubled child parts), but to be curious and interested in what they have to say. It's like a shift in your relationship with yourself. There is development of compassion for the traumatised parts of self and they begin to heal.

I feel I understand Internal Family Systems and TIST better, but I think DBT seems a bit more about life coping skills whereas IFS and TIST are more specifically targeted at working with the inner child. The somatic work I've done has involved processing specific traumatic incidents and events, but it's also really taught me to sense and feel into my own body. I spent so many years dissociated from myself it's really helpful to actually connect with feelings and sensations which are communications from the body. The TIST method borrows from another somatic therapy called Sensorimotor Psychotherapy which incorporates body awareness and listens to bodily communications.

Vulnerability is actually a really good thing. It's something you can learn to experience in a positive way. There's a TED talk by Brene Brown called The Power of Vulnerability which may be of interest. Her research has found people who have the courage to be imperfect and fully embrace vulnerability are the ones who have the most sense of worthiness, joy, connection and belonging. Part of that is developing tenderness towards ourselves. So see if you can move from viewing yourself as toxic to being tender and kind towards the vulnerable parts of your self.

Take care 🤗

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Rowen13 — Thu, 06 Feb 2025 20:17:44 GMT

Hi ER,

Again than you so much. You have given me so many things to think about, research, read and watch.

It's so hard to not continually want to shut the door on him because I feel so emotionally vulnerable. I have reached out and texted this morning to thank you to him for sending me vitamins. I didn't want to, not because I am not grateful but because I wanted to go No Contact and protect myself. I know he see's me as an online acquaintance and I see him as a friend. Anyway I did it to have good manners and be someone I could be proud of. But I feel like our friendship is one sided, so even though I miss him...I'm going to try and distance myself a bit. I want to stop initiating contact first because I don't want a one sided friendship. It's just killing what little self esteem I have left.

I just seem to always develop these friendships since my 40's, when I was younger it was more balanced.

It breaks my heart because I think our friendship is over but at the same time I know I have to just let go and maybe grieve the loss.

I really hate my anxious attachment, I keep pushing somebody away and when they go...I'm devastated by the loss. I know it comes from childhood but I still hate that I lose so many great friends by my inability to be vulnerable. To believe I am loveable, that I'm enough...no matter how many times they say it. I feel too much and yet never enough.

Anyway I will take some deep breaths and look into some of the great information you gave me 😊

TIST sounds ideal for me because living this emotionally disregulated and being so highly sensitive is quite exhausting on the mind and body. Atm I have no peace in my mind and just keenly feel the empty space his friendship has left.

I hope you have a beautiful day.

Take care,

Rowen13 😊😊😊

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Eagle Ray — Fri, 07 Feb 2025 13:16:13 GMT

Thanks Rowen13 😊

I think if he has sent you vitamins, he must care at some level, but his communication style is perhaps different as you've described. I think you get to a point where your sense of worth and esteem are not based on someone else's responses. You actually can generate that sense of self-worth and self-esteem from within. It's often when we do that that our outer relationships improve too. It can just be on the challenging side learning to do this based on a lack of support in childhood for our sense of self.

I certainly still struggle at times and it's really messed up potential relationships in my life where I have run away from promising situations that I actually wanted but convinced myself I wouldn't be acceptable to the other person. With me it has been a very avoidant attachment style. This is apparently common in Complex PTSD. I am working on overcoming this now and it's actually something I want to discuss at my next appointment with my psych. I have some lovely, really meaningful friendships now, and I've let go of unhealthy friendships, but for me it has been romantic relationships that I've been particularly terrified of. It's like wanting something but convincing yourself it just isn't safe at the same time, at least that is my pattern. I would say that I have sabotaged myself a lot. But it's never too late to work through these things. I recently read Peter Levine's autobiography. He is the creator of the Somatic Experiencing trauma therapy which I have found very helpful. Like me he had childhood trauma and he also really struggled with relationships. I think he was about the age we are now when he finally settled into a secure, long term relationship. So for some of us, it really just does take a while. He has a lovely quote which is: "It's never too late to have a happy childhood".

There are lots of interesting resources and therapeutic approaches out there now. I hope you find some things you connect with and that help you along the way.

Have a lovely weekend 😀😊🤗

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Rowen13 — Fri, 07 Feb 2025 20:50:33 GMT

Hi ER,

Thank you for giving me hope and a lot of resources to read, watch and learn from.

I have anxious/avoidant style attachment which can be extremely exhausting. I once thought it was only effecting my romantic relationships but found years later that I was so insecure it to also affected my friendship's. Weirdly when I was younger my friendship's were healthier and I had no issues that I battle with now.

It's terrible for me and the other poor person because once the friendship moves beyond a superficial level and my emotions are engaged...my attachment styles get activated. I start the dance of running to them to sooth my abandonment issues and alternatively pushing them away when I feel threatened by their closeness.

It's confusing and probably exhausting for them and painful for me. I can't seem to stop these unhealthy relationship patterns be it platonic or romantic.

But you have given me hope and although I wish I was more securely attached within relationships...you have given me hope that I can be one day.

And for that I thank you.

Hope you have a beautiful day 😊

Rowen13

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Eagle Ray — Sat, 08 Feb 2025 00:06:17 GMT

Hi Rowen13,

I just thought I’d mention that one thing that has come up on the balance menopause app I’m on, is women talking about developing anxious attachment styles in perimenopause that they didn’t have previously. So the fact things shifted for you in your 40s could have a hormonal basis to it. If there’s been early childhood neglect/abuse perhaps it’s more likely that this emotional dysregulation around attachment will happen when hormones become less stable in our 40s and 50s. It’s incredible how powerful hormones are.

I’ve definitely had really intense behaviours emerge in perimenopause that are like a massive intensification of childhood trauma patterns and issues. So in 2023 my avoidance became more extreme and I was literally frozen for hours unable to move in my home and stopped being able to answer the phone or the front door. This avoidance then turned into me getting into my car and driving to stay in remote locations, which was me trying to activate my flight response to get out of the freeze response. That actually really helped at the time, but it was clear there was an intensification of certain emotions and behaviours that felt uncontrollable.

So the fact you find yourself acting in certain ways in your 40s that feel less balanced and a bit out of control, could be hormonally driven. I’m hoping that post-menopause things settle a lot. But for some women this perimenopause phase is unbelievably rocky. So I think it’s more import than ever to be understanding and compassionate with yourself. I’m learning that everything starts with self-compassion in terms of managing what’s happening as best as we can.

I hope you have a beautiful day too 😊

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Rowen13 — Sat, 08 Feb 2025 22:18:54 GMT

Hi ER,

I have not been totally honest in my dilemma with my friend, anxious attachment style definitely affected the relationship but also the constant re-emerging of inappropriate feelings towards him. I somewhere along the lines fell in love with him. It was unrequited and impossible due to so many circumstances so I would try to continually kill the feelings. But unfortunately they kept springing right back up and affecting my mental and emotional health.

I expressed my feelings this morning to my friend, even though I knew my love was unrequited, impossible and unwanted.

I laid my heart bare to move on and show why I couldn't continue the friendship.

But I really regret it…because I not only don't have his love (which I knew he never felt) but now I feel completely exposed, vulnerable and really stupid.

I thought I was being brave but I just feel so heartbroken…I want to remove my heart from my chest because it's killing me. I thought some sort of closure, no matter how embarrassing and vulnerable it made me...would help me to finally shut the door and heal. But God the pain is unbelievable and I feel utterly worthless and beyond ashamed.

Additionally, I have lost all remnants of my self respect and I wish the ground would open up and swallow me whole.

Whilst I'm day dreaming, I wish I could erase him from my memory and stop the heart break...like in the movie, Eternal Sunshine on a Spotless Mind. Just to stop the pain, I feel like I can't breathe and even though I have been heartbroken before with a break up with a boyfriend. It's so much more degrading when it's unrequited feelings for a friend who repeatedly told you he just "cares and likes you".

I feel like utter sh*t!!! 💔💔💔

I know time supposedly heals everything but it literally took me 8 years to get over my ex-narcissistic boyfriend. So I have really strong emotions. I feel so angry at myself for developing these emotions and for not being mature enough to keep silent about them. Instead I have lost him totally and while it's probably a big boost to his ego...I feel so worthless and cringe with embarrassment and shame.

At 50...I feel even more ashamed of my lack of emotional immaturity in not being able to keep silent and deal with my emotions alone without heaping it on him. It was extremely disrespectful and only detrimental.

Whatever closure I thought baring my soul would get me...sadly has not come. I won't die but at 50, I really thought all this emotional drama and pain was behind me.

Thanks for listening ER,

Rowen13

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Eagle Ray — Sun, 09 Feb 2025 00:00:53 GMT

Dear Rowen13,

I am so sorry you are going through this. Please do not feel bad for your feelings and emotions. Falling in love is not something we have control over - ever. It just happens and you can’t actually turn those emotions off. I think you have been brave in your honesty by telling him but of course it hurts like hell if you know it’s not reciprocated in the same way. I honestly think you have shown the courage to be vulnerable and open and that is something to be proud of. I feel in time you will be able to feel proud of yourself and look back and realise you showed courage and emotional honesty. It is not something to be ashamed of.

I can tell you a story that is quite exposing of me but maybe helps a little. When I was 18 I fell in love with someone I was studying with. In this case he also fell in love with me, but he was married. Both of us are honest and ethical to a T so neither of us was going to be involved in cheating. To make it worse we were duet partners (for music studies). We had regular rehearsals, just the two of us. We were like twin spirits and could talk for hours. We connected profoundly and I we could see and understand each other with the greatest of ease. We had similar prior trauma as well and were both highly sensitive individuals.

But, of course, we couldn’t be together. He was going to be moving interstate with his partner and I was only enrolled in a year long course there. We had to say goodbye and, honestly, there will never be words for the emotional pain. We were both in emotional agony the last day we were together. I lived with the situation alone for a long time as I didn’t feel I could tell others. When I did try to disclose to a couple of people there was more judgement than understanding because they assumed he’d taken advantage of me which he hadn’t.

Much more recently I discussed this with my psychologist. I initially wrote it out to her in an email because I couldn’t speak it at first. I then later spoke about it. It really helped having a witness for this experience which I realised decades later was like a broken part of myself that hadn’t been tended to or received support. So what I would say for you, Rowen13, is you need emotion support. That’s why it’s good you are sharing here. But I do feel, if there’s some way you can find a good bulk-billing or low cost counsellor/psych you really trust and feel safe with, it could be very supportive for you. What you will be experiencing now will be deep loss and grief. I have found myself that sharing grief with the right person helps. It alleviates some of the intensity and allows it to move through your system instead of being so stuck and heavy inside of you. It’s through that being seen compassionately by another that we begin to heal.

When I was about 32 I really liked this guy I was in a music group with. It’s hard to believe I did this now but I wrote him a song and went to his house and played it for him. That was my way of communicating my feelings. He immediately told me he didn’t feel the same way, but said let’s go out to lunch so we did. We actually managed to both keep going to the music group and although I felt a bit embarrassed I also felt brave and was glad I’d had the courage to communicate my feelings. I knew where I stood now. So try to see that you have been brave and honest. Yes, you will feel exposed now, but you are not stupid. Having been honest may close things down with him, or perhaps as in the example of the guy I wrote the song for, it clears the air with everything open and honest and you may even be able to maintain a friendship. Or, if you remain so intensely in love with him then, yes, it may be too hard to maintain as a friendship. But whatever the outcome, living honestly and true to your heart is a gift to yourself, even though it may not feel like it right now.

If you want someone to talk to, you could try Griefline 1300 845 745. The most important thing is to be tender and kind to yourself. And be proud of your courage to be vulnerable and honest 🌟 For those of us with emotionally traumatic childhoods we can experience attachments intensely and feel everything so much. But the capacity to feel is also a gift. See if you can turn that capacity to feel into compassion for yourself.

Take good care and happy to chat further if it helps,

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Rowen13 — Sun, 09 Feb 2025 06:12:08 GMT

Hi ER,

You are just the sweetest!

Yes I feel intensely and deep. I just feel stupid because we met on a depression app, he's married with two children and I never, ever meant to feel anything for him. He also lives in a completely different country so you can see why I hate my heart atm. We didn't meet on a dating app, nor did I see him as anything but a fellow app member, then friend. We did move our friendship off the app, into another communication app and then we would talk weekly on the phone. We have only known each other for 15 months but the conversation content was of course deeper and more intense. You tend to I guess slip up and make yourself more vulnerable when you are merely texting and not looking in their eyes lol. Anyway I only saw him as a friend for ages and then I started to care and then I felt "love". I assumed at first it was a love I felt for some female/women friends.

I would describe it to him as such when I first felt it but the jealousy I feel towards his wife, makes me think it might not be purely friendly.

I have had guy friends irl and met their girlfriends and have never been jealous or possessive. But I was 39 at the time, so maybe perimenopausal is playing a part in it. Anyway of course he loves his wife, and he should since they have 2 children and I am not a homewrecker. Plus I am also a feminist, so I can't stand the fact that I am jealous of her. He belongs to her not me.

This illogical feeling has me thinking in such a "impossible" situation, I should just cut him out. I am Roman Catholic and married men to me, might as well be dead men. I would never go there.

My mum is sick and is constantly ringing me and of course I would love to text my best friend but I stupidly fell in love. So I have to learn to not have him for support.

Of course you are right...I could use a psychologist but even with subsidised therapists, my budget still can't afford it.

Thank you for telling me your romantic although unrequited stories of love. It does take bravery to make the declaration of one's feelings but when they are married...I can't help but feel rather stupid. I also told him because he always got so hurt when I tried to end our friendship and would become short and abrupt. But I thought if I told him that it was because communicating with someone who didn't feel the same way and was morally unable to, even if he did, would reassure him that I would only end it because I literally had no choice.

It's new and it really hurts...just miss him so much which is weird since we never met. I never believed that people could actually develop feelings for other people online. I guess it's karma slapping me in the face lol.

Bravo to you for being brave and talented enough to actually write a song about him. A female friend wrote a song about me and sang it too. We were best friends at 23 and I still love her and hope whatever she is, that she is having a happy life.

I definitely need someone to talk to and not judge me. I talk to my mum but it's like talking to the wall. I can talk about a topic and she reply about herself, the only subject that holds her interest. It's annoying and kind of funny too. I can't imagine being that self absorbed and sometimes envy her. My mum has never loved anyone more than herself and in fact proudly used people throughout her 82 years of life on this world. She thinks I am very weak but compared to her...I can see why she would think so. That's why we need professional unbiased, unrelated people to talk to.

Thank you for our chats. It's been awhile since I made an online female connection.

I have a few online acquaintances via my meditation app but they are male and the conversations are polite and light of course. Sometimes you need the female perspective.

Keeping being you're beautiful self 😊

Rowen13

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Eagle Ray — Sun, 09 Feb 2025 09:50:01 GMT

Dear Rowen13,

I think it’s important not to view yourself as stupid. You are human and fell in love which is a very human thing to do. Yes, given his marital status, he is off-limits romantically. Whether you can find a balance again in a friendship sense I don’t know. But I think just keeping any communication straightforward and clear helps, whatever happens.

With your mum, I do relate to trying to do what you describe telling your mum things and her just turning it back to her. I had a similar experience where my mum would tell me all her problems for a long time and I would be supporting her and helping her out. The moment I tried to share something of my own feelings and how I was going, as I was a person who needed support too, she would turn the conversation back to her like I hadn’t expressed anything about myself at all. It’s like I was invisible other than to serve her. So with your friend it’s like you were seen and heard by him, and that can make it quite easy to fall in love where there is a feeling of connection and understanding that has otherwise been missing from your life.

I think the best thing we can do in such situations is learn about ourselves from them. So perhaps a theme is that you haven’t been seen in life and it is a need you have. Looking to find healthy reciprocal relationships where you are seen, as well as truly seeing and nurturing yourself, is likely the best way forward. As I mentioned I think in your other thread, a healthy relationship is not based on a co-dependency of thinking someone else has to meet our needs and clinging to that. It is more of a naturally occurring organic process where each person can support one another but has a healthy centre within themselves. So I think working on finding groundedness in yourself can really help, whether it is through meditation, yoga, a hobby you love doing that is part of your identity/sense of self etc - whatever it is it’s like coming back into your own body, connecting with your own soul and realising you are really ok in this moment in terms of who you are as a person. It is coming home to yourself.

It is very empowering to realise that you are ok as a person in this moment now. All the doubts and worries can fall away. People who have the idea you are weak, that’s rubbish and their construction and projection. My mum said things like I was “weak and pathetic”, even in front of others, like a form of humiliation. Looking back I should have told her exactly what I thought of that and the person I am today I would. I’d look straight at her and say “I’m not weak and pathetic”. You can often quite calmly refute rubbish. If you want to see a good example of this I suggest watching the Elton John biopic Rocket Man. In fact, if you google the YouTube clip of a scene from it entitled “When Are You Going to Hug Me?” it shows him confronting all the demons from the abuse he’s been through from others in a calm but firm way, before hugging his inner child. You can see he has become centred and at peace and the abusive ones no longer have power over him.

Take good care of yourself Rowen13,

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Rowen13 — Mon, 10 Feb 2025 23:18:46 GMT

Hello ER,

Thank you for your continued support. You really are a wealth of information to me and I am extremely grateful.

I now see that I have to accept that my mother will always be a narcissist and stop wishing for the mum I deserved. I had no hatred in my heart since she was only repeating her childhood trauma.

She will always lie and manipulate me and put herself first. I have to accept that. Now I need time to soul search. She took 50 years of my life away from me, how much more of my life am I willing to sacrifice to her.

In regards to my friend, I have uninstalled the app we used to communicate. So I am trying to accept a life without him. It just hurts too much to text or talk to him. I don't want to keep wasting my life on people who don't love me. I actually accepted a long time ago that we couldn't be of course but I was never comfortable with the emotional imbalance. The energy dynamic...I felt once again like I was never enough. Expressing you love to a friend and having them view you as almost an acquaintance is extremely painful. So even though I miss him, I remind myself how painful contact with him would be so I choose my emotional and mental health.

I hope you are doing well and I want you to know you have really helped me continue with a difficult time in my life.

Look after yourself,

Rowen13 😊🪷😊🪷

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Eagle Ray — Tue, 11 Feb 2025 06:20:52 GMT

Dear Rowen13,

It sounds like you are ready perhaps to prioritise yourself. I have found it interesting to see what happens when I do this. With my brother he has actually treated me better since I’ve been stronger with him and put up a boundary. But there’s a sense in which they try to pull you back into old patterns too and there’s a need to stay strong when manipulation is present. I find I am defending the vulnerable parts of myself first now just as I would defend a vulnerable person in the external world, such as a child. I think neither your inner child nor mine had anyone there for them growing up. So it’s like we have to have our own back if others don’t. I’m finding it actually becomes quite matter of fact and non-negotiable. You just start sticking up for yourself and identifying where your limits are.

In relation to your friend, it may help to view it in a less black and white way. For example, saying you don’t want to waste your life on people who don’t love you implies he didn’t care about you. But he may have cared but had certain boundaries in place and he couldn’t form a non-platonic relationship with you. I think it’s important to not put someone else too high in our hopes to meet our emotional needs, because it’s not their responsibility. It’s like placing a condition on a relationship from the start. We have to recognise we’re responsible for our own needs, and when we do it’s so empowering. We actually form healthier more grounded relationships that way that are mutually nourishing but without conditional expectations or projections. It’s like our relational needs get met when we’re not projecting but each have our own centre.

For me I’ve done quite a lot of pushing people away, convincing myself I’m not worthy and that they wouldn’t want me. Even when someone has reached out to me and made their feelings clear, it’s like I still haven’t believed deep down they will accept me. So in my case, my black and white thinking was no one could possibly love and accept me. We can hold core beliefs about ourselves that simply aren’t real. We can also project beliefs and expectations onto others. But we become at peace when we let go of all of that, be ourselves and let others be themselves.

I hope that doesn’t sound like a lecture, but I’m saying all this because I’m still in a learning process myself. Only yesterday I was talking with my psychologist about my past patterns of pushing people away and being afraid of intimacy, and the core negative beliefs I’ve long held about myself that are behind that. So we are always a work in progress and it’s so important for us to be kind to ourselves.

Take care 🤗☺️

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Rowen13 — Tue, 11 Feb 2025 09:48:06 GMT

Hello ER,

Yeah the black and white thing struck me hard because he feels for me in grey. He said everything was not always in black and white and that there was also the middle, being grey of course. Where his feelings lie. I don't know it just gutted me.

Then I have read all these new terns like "limerance" and thought crap, I'm not experiencing limerance with this guy am I?

I don't why they have to keep putting new terms on things, sometimes constantly over analysing doesn’t help at all.

I miss him but I can't go back because I actually feel so jealous of his wife. That is not normal at all.

He did play with my feelings at the start and actually had me believing they were separated by ommission. He led me on at the start and first denied it and later on apologised for feeding my fantasy of a life together. I just don't know if I can fully trust him. He says he loves his wife but early on, he was obviously pursuing me. Maybe he was bored and when he did that I was repelled. The lines are too blurred and I have made myself way to vulnerable with him. A mistake I will never do again, partly my fault since I was emotionally easy I guess lol.

I continually have doubts about him...it's awful. Because of being brought up by a narcissist and surrounded by narcissistic siblings, I sometimes feel he is acting in manipulative ways or is it that I just honestly don't know who to trust anymore.

But I miss him and I hate myself for it. I really, really do. There's no point, I feel so embarrassed and I am not happy with what he has to offer me. A friendship where he likes to help me and trusts me to an extent but not fully. So he doesn't tell me any information about his past anymore because I gave repeatedly tried to break up the friendship and have hurt him too many times. I can understand it and accept it's my fault. But it's not a friendship dynamic I can be happy with. If I ruined the beautiful friendship we once had I can't pretend to be happy with a watered down version, all one sided. It's like playing tennis against the drapes, there's no effort on his side, he has cut me off emotionally about 6 months ago but won't leave me behind because of his military training..."no man left behind" crap.

Sorry really missing him today.

You are so smart and even though I don't want to hear it, you usually hit the nail on the head with me and my anxious attachment issues lol.

Take care,

Rowen13

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Eagle Ray — Tue, 11 Feb 2025 10:51:02 GMT

Hi Rowen13,

From the further info you’ve provided about him it doesn’t sound like a healthy situation. At first I thought from what you were saying he’s a more benign character where he considered it a friendship but you developed feelings. But what you are now describing sounds manipulative and unbalanced. If he was leading you on regarding a possible life together, then denying it, that is a bit messed up given his marital status. That alone is a red flag. Often people who were raised by a narcissist can become the target of narcissists in other relationships later. Dr Ramani’s YouTube channel can be quite a useful resource for deciphering the behaviour of narcissists and these kinds of patterns. I’m not saying he is one. I can’t possibly know being outside the situation. But it sounds like a really problematic situation in terms of boundaries and very murky to navigate.

Once again, please don’t hate yourself. Having just discussed the topic of self-hatred with my psych yesterday, it’s so important to realise it’s an illusion and a reactive response that got embedded in us from a young age by our environment. It isn’t real and it’s another example of black and white thinking - e.g. I am all bad. When I was referring to black and white thinking I basically meant when we think in absolutes, such as viewing ourselves as totally bad or putting someone else on a pedestal.

My sense from what you’ve communicated is that it’s best to move on from this situation, which I know is very painful. It doesn’t sound resolvable and it seems like it will just be painfully drawn out. There will be grieving of course from having formed a strong attachment. I just think allowing yourself to let go and grieve and then open up a space for new possibilities is the best way to go. Just be tender with yourself right now. You don’t need to keep trying to go over it to resolve it, because it does sound like an unresolvable situation. I understand the feeling of loss is really difficult 😞

Take care and all the best,

Re: Unrequited friendships or low self-esteem?

Rowen13 — Tue, 11 Feb 2025 22:00:21 GMT

Hi ER,

I think you are right, the situation will always be murky and since this is someone whom I can never actually sit down with, I can never really know his true attentions. He displays many characteristics of covert narcissism a.k.a "the nice guy" narcissist, which is a lot harder to recognise early. And because I have been surrounded by narcissistic people my whole life I really have no healthy compass and double guess myself all the time. I will never know for sure if I was played (I probably was) or he is a nice guy. I talked to one of his girl friends who spoke highly of his character, so who knows?!?

But does it really matter in the grand scheme of things. He is not somebody I could meet irl for a cup of coffee. I did once have a male friend irl for years and do miss the company of the opposite sex in a platonic setting. I love women friend's but also loved having a male friend in my life. He moved to Canberra and the friendship ended so a part of me believes opposite platonic relationships can exist but this will not be the case with my online friend.

Thanks for listening to me. You told me what I was thinking inside, but didn't want to face and that in itself shows me what a wonderful person you are.

Back to the black and white thinking thing which is taught in CBT therapy, you're correct, in that regards I have slipped back in to that pattern a lot. Thank you for reminding me.

Another amazing person to watch on narcissists is Professor Sam Vaknin, whom is a self aware narcissist himself. I don't what it says about me, but I could watch him endlessly...he is so captivating and terrifying. Watching him has taught me so much about narcissists.

So it's day 3 of NC and I am of course suffering with withdrawals and self doubt. Over analysing if I am doing the right thing. I want him to be real so much and it's so torturous because I will never know for sure if he was narcissistic or a good guy.

I am aware I don't require him for closure but will be honest and admit I just came across that information yesterday on a YouTube video yesterday that taught me that lol. It was why I was endlessly chasing him down for answers, something to satisfy or ease my pain...to tie the loose ends, in the false belief something only he could give me would empower me to move on and make relinquishing him easier but nothing will and I can't skip the grieving process.

He definitely did things that just didn't morally align with my values. But he would say I was being judgey and assuming all the time. I guess none of it matters...I just miss my friend or atleast the "version" he once showed me. He is way more intelligent than me, so if he was a narcissist, I never stood a chance.

Thank you as always for your support 😊

take care of yourself,

Rowen13