topic No help available in Depression

No help available

interloper — Sat, 08 Apr 2017 02:06:57 GMT

I live in a country town in Victoria, so options are automatically limited.

I have seen 3 GPs, 2 psychologists, 1 counsellor, 1 mental health care nurse, tried meds, etc.

I am at my wits end. Firstly nothing.... nothing, relieves my symptoms.

The first psych gave me the "google-list" of self-help (exercise, diet, music, gratitude lists, hobbies, etc) and that I was being dismissive, even though I had been doing all that stuff. Then I saw the counsellor, who straight up told me he couldn't help. My current psych is making no headroad with me at all and said so herself that she was running out of ideas.

My GP suggested trying meds again, which I was reluctant about. I keep hearing you need to try different medication, so I made myself open to the idea. A liver function test showed issues (despite not being a heavy drinker, taking nothing else, and living a clean life), so he won't prescribe one type of meds and says another type won't help me. He is focussed on the next option being a psychiatrist two hours away. I did some research, and saw a different GP to get a referral to a visiting psychiatrist (again, not keen, but I'm trying to stay open minded). New GP said that psychologist was rubbish, meds are rubbish, and to "try being more positive" and had I "heard about homeopathy".

I am done with this. It is plastered everywhere that help is available, but my experience over the last couple of years says that unless you are a bored housewife or have a lust for material things and need to come to terms with this stuff then it goes in the "too hard" basket. The basket where I live. There is no real help available. I've spoken with phone counsellors here and on LifeLine, and they are in a difficult position and ultimately cannot do anything. Ultimately, I am convinced that there is no help available.

If you've made it this far, thanks. If you've been in a similar situation and found a way to access meaningful help please let me know what you did, because I am ready to give up.

No help available

startingnew — Sat, 08 Apr 2017 04:07:14 GMT

hi interloper

ive been in that position! and i was pretty much ready to give up until i found these forums.

just being able to express what im feeling and having people aorund me here being supportive and actually 'hearing' me has kinda made a big difference to me.

ive been through 2 gps and have just found a good one, im up to my 4th psychologist and im on medications and have tried naturopathy as well

that could be an option - naturopathy- if you havent tried that before.

im not fully aware of your situation or diagnoses.... id be happy to hear more about you if you up for it?

ive also created a coping strategies thread, maybe theres something on there that you havent tried yet.

mayeb you could try a psychiatrist- these actually specialise in medications so you might have more luck with them..

No help available

interloper — Sat, 08 Apr 2017 19:27:40 GMT

I'm glad you found solace by discussing things. I often feel like doing so makes no difference, or can make things worse sometimes.

I have symptoms of dysthymia, and am anhedonic most of the time. I don't know why.

I am nihilistic in my view of life. I came to the realisation a while ago that there is no meaning to life; that objectively our existence is pointless, and we can only create subjective meaning which is false, or only faux at best. That most of humanity is tricking itself into thinking that life has meaning and value, and I cannot do the mental gymnastics any more.

I don't see my mental health and philosophical ideas and being linked explicitly. I believe that you must be crazy or naive to think otherwise.

No one I've spoken to seems to know what to say to that...

No help available

Kazzl — Sat, 08 Apr 2017 21:28:26 GMT

Hi interloper, welcome to the forum.

I'm a bit taken by your thoughts on being crazy or naive. When I think too much about the world I'm inclined to agree with you! And that's when I turn off the TV news.

And often I find myself challenging assumptions about words like 'crazy' or 'naive' or 'sensitive' being bad. I am often naive, a bit delusional, unreasonably optimistic and perpetually crazy (by my own definition of the word) and they are not bad places to be y'know.

Yes there is pain and sadness, but there can also be simple pleasures that mean nothing to others but make my life valuable to me. And there can be little pleasures of my own making - seeing someone smile because I smiled at them, feeling brave because I chatted to someone I don't know, seeing someone enjoy a meal I cooked, taking an afternoon nap and not feeling guilty ... simple things make me happy and, generally, big things don't.

This might sound a bit hippy dippy or new agey or such, but I really do think you find the answers within you. Yes we all need help from others and from professional services when we're unwell (and I see that you are not well-served there), but sometimes the starting point has to be helping ourselves. One small thing can start a change that grows.

Set aside the big things in life, over which we have no control, and think about what gives you pleasure. Try not to intellectualise it, just go with your gut instinct. What do you enjoy?

Or, if you want to intellectualise it, which is not a bad thing in itself by the way, try some basic cognitive behavioural therapy on yourself, especially thought replacement (negative to positive). Takes some doing, but if you persist it can help you change things.

Here's a book I recommend - Change Your Thinking, by Dr Sarah Edelman. A well respected reference on CBT - it helped me a lot.

Best wishes

Kaz

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interloper — Sun, 09 Apr 2017 08:35:21 GMT

Hi Kaz,

Thanks for your reply. I'd love to take pleasure in things but I find it difficult to do so. Anything that I could do, if I made a list of pros and cons the negatives would be greater in number and intensity every time. For example, I have a motorbike. I enjoy riding it because of the sense of freedom it provides, the snap of it accelerating, and the feeling of cornering well. I don't enjoy it because of the cost of rego and insurance, the ecological footprint it creates, the uncomfortable nature of riding it for a significant period of time, and the constant threat of being booked for speeding if you go a few kilometres over the limit. Rationally, it stacks up as a bad thing, and I have advertised it to sell it. I could do this for everything in life.

The other thing you mentioned is the little things like a shared smile, etc. I wouldn't want to take anyone's happiness away, and if that brings you joy then that is good. For me though I don't see the value. We're all meaningless creatures existing on a rock orbiting a random star in a corner of a vast galaxy positioned in an ever expanding and infinite universe. An extremely small percentage of the 7 billion people alive now will be completely forgotten and no trace of their existence remaining in a century: a speck in the passage of time. So why bother?

I appreciate your suggestions, but I cannot see how to turn these "negatives" into "positives", when they are neutral truths and my response is unhappiness. I am sorry if I come across the wrong way too...

No help available

topsy_ — Sun, 09 Apr 2017 09:12:33 GMT

Hi Interloper

Your first post could have be written by me - I went/have been through that & more. Umpteen medications & years of sexual abuse as a child. I live in country NSW but as a bit larger place do have a few more facilities.

Where I ended up in the end was having ECT. It did pretty bad things to my memory but it did save my life. At that time I was a single parent to 3 little girls so I had to try & stay alive to raise them.

With that accomplished I then met a man who wanted to marry me (can you sense I was a bit passive about that?). We have been married nearly 19 years now. My husband has schizophrenia & diabetes so we spend a lot of time at the doctors & chemist!!

I often wonder what the value of life/living is. We are born, we live & we die - for what? I find myself with a husband, daughters & grandchildren who love me. I have promised my husband I will not take my life while he's alive but all bets are off afterwards.

Also I have made another decision I suspect no-one will understand or approve of. I suffered for years to get to the level of functioning I am now & I can still have to endure months of pain & darkness. Accordingly I am not going to have all those recommended tests for cancer etc. If I get something like cancer - well we all have to die of something. I don't have it in me to fight for my life again.

So I kind of can relate to what you have said.

With kind thoughts, Lyn.

No help available

Broken_Biscuit_Blues — Sun, 09 Apr 2017 12:31:49 GMT

I had ECT back in 2001 At the time I was in hospital too far gone to be bothered talking to the doctors or nurses or anybody other that my mum. just laying in bed all day smashed on high doses of various medication

t seemed to help a bit, it knocked my short term memory around at the time but it recovered pretty quickly.

It was however no miracle cure. it took me a long time to get back on my feet, and now I am really struggling again just keeping my head above water and fearing I will be powerless to stop things heading back to 2001

No help available

interloper — Mon, 10 Apr 2017 02:20:56 GMT

Hi Lyn and BBB.

It is interesting to hear that some people don't ever feel completely better. I felt like this would be the case for me but keep getting told that I will eventually get better. It makes me feel like I am very broken. To know that there are others who don't move out of this is somehow comforting. Not that it makes our days any better.

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JessF — Mon, 10 Apr 2017 07:07:27 GMT

Hello interloper, I am not in a rural area so I thank my lucky stars that I haven't been in the position of having little help to choose from at the times I've needed to reach out. If you don't click with a psychologist, then it can be very difficult to make progress.

That said, you do mention that you have seen a number of professionals, 7 if I count right from your first post, and still don't feel you are making progress. This is either extremely unlucky, or there are more questions to be answered.

Psychological therapy is hard, hard work. I can see a number of statements in your posts so far that perhaps shed some light on why it has been slow going for you so far. This one really stood out for me:

"I'm glad you found solace by discussing things. I often feel like doing so makes no difference, or can make things worse sometimes."

A belief like that will make it very difficult to engage properly in therapy. It will affect how willing you are to explore your thoughts and feelings, and how you might go about changing your perspective.

Kazzl has recommended a good book, I would like to add another one, called Learned Optimism by Dr Martin Seligman. There is decades of research that shows how core negative, nihilistic beliefs are absolutely linked to depression.

I'm not sure how deeply you have attempted to challenge your beliefs in the past, and this may be worth examining.

Your last post about setting your expectations around what 'better' looks like is also a good one. It's unreasonable for others to set expectations of how and when we will get 'better', or even what that means. That is something we have to discover for ourselves.

No help available

interloper — Mon, 10 Apr 2017 22:57:18 GMT

Hi Jess.

I think I approach talking sessions with an open mind and with the view to make a difference. I have found that no one can help me unpick the matrix of ideas that I have.

-> If nothing is permanent, and everything we do will be erased in a short period of time = nothing means anything objectively

= only meaning can be derived from subjectivity

= subjectivity is not true meaning (my meaning may conflict with your meaning, extreme example: Hitler, Pol Pot, et al. Or even things like my comfort being derived from others suffering, e.g. factory workers in Asia, Pacific Islanders because of climate change)

= my personal subjective meaning is null and void

= why bother doing anything meaningless

= why bother living

Even when applied to something more abstract like happiness, why does it matter at all if I am happy or not? I'm going to die soon (in any measurement of significance) anyway. I mean, we don't care if ants are happy: their lives are short-lived and relatively meaningless.

I want to break these ideas apart and see the flaws in them but no one seems able to. Like you say, I am either very unlucky or there are more questions (like what the hell is actually causing me to think like this). I don't think that there is anything incorrect with the series of idea above. So if they are not wrong, then what? Do I try and deceive myself? I don't know - no one can tell me.

Like I said, I think I am at the end of my tether with regards to professionals. I plan to give the books you and Kazzl recommended. My job involves a lot of reading outside of work hours, so it will take time to get through them, but I guess I have to find time.

No help available

JessF — Tue, 11 Apr 2017 06:18:45 GMT

Hello again interloper,

What I really enjoy about your posts is that despite you feeling that there's no point, you are continuing to reach out. Posting here, reading suggested books, exploring options, wanting to challenge your thoughts... that says to me there is a part of you that wants to believe things can be different. Perhaps that is a starting point?

You mention that noone has yet been able to help you unpick your ideas. The questions you ask have been debated by famous philosophers, theologians, wise people for centuries. You sound like a keen reader, I wonder if you've delved into some of the literature around existentialism, nihilism etc that is out there? What value might you find in changing tack to focus on the journey, the search for knowledge, rather than the destination?

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interloper — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:31:33 GMT

I think my ideas started to crystallise when I started reading some thinkers of the past. Reading about Tolstoy was very interesting and he had some great things to say about the lack of meaning to life. I've read a little about Camus, and want to read more. Kierkegaard is another that I have read a little about and want to know more. I am planning to have some time off work and this will give me more time to read and think. I am sure I am not the first person to not feel comfortable with their existence and someone must have nutted out some things by now... I just really strikes me that more people are not worried about their own meaning and existence, but are instead too busy watching reality TV or scrolling endlessly through facebook. I don't get it.

By the way, Seligman's book is in the mail, hopefully here tomorrow...

No help available

Kazzl — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:21:37 GMT

Hi Interloper. I agree with Jess - I am impressed with your persistence in reaching out and your quest to learn and obvious intelligence and deep thinking.

I read a lot of existentialist literature at uni, but that was over 30 years ago. I used to work in the public service and it often made me think of Franz Kafka's The Trial.

I suppose this could be seen as 'copping out', but my antidote to all that's wrong with the world (and there is much) is to make my world very small. I just focus on me and mine, my garden, my dogs, my work (I work in mental health these days).

I'm here, (I had a go once at not being here and I'm glad now it failed) so I will damn well make the most of it in ways that work for me. They might be meaningless, everything might be meaningless, but the alternative is just as meaningless in my view.

We live, we learn, we share, we take care of ourselves and each other. That's the point to me.

BTW - reality TV, actually most commercial TV, makes me want to throw things. I don't watch, but I don't care if others do, because that's not part of my world. If people around me start talking about it I either walk away politely, or impolitely put my hands over my ears and sing lalalalala. 😀

Anyways, just wanted to say hi really.

Cheers

Kaz

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interloper — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 12:17:52 GMT

"They might be meaningless, everything might be meaningless, but the alternative is just as meaningless"

This really struck me. I have been trying to work out a way to put things into perspective and "enjoy life". This is a really good way to look at it! Everything is meaningless, so let's choose the best meaningless option.

Ps. I am glad you failed in not being here

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Kazzl — Fri, 14 Apr 2017 03:05:25 GMT

Wow, that's wonderful, thanks interloper! Made my day.

I love that idea of choosing the best meaningless option! I hadn't thought of it that way. So, if we take it that it's all meaningless, the options for best meaningless are wide open for you to explore and find out what works for you. That's exciting!

I hope you'll stay here and let us share your explorations. I like you.

Yes, I'm a bit pleased about my failure too ... every single day. 😀

Cheers

Kaz

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Broken_Biscuit_Blues — Fri, 14 Apr 2017 03:23:14 GMT

To be honest brother I think you have read more than enough philosophy, You have reached your conclusions and those conclusions are doing your head in.

Time to move your no doubt considerable intellect onto some other area of enquiry. more engineering based, like how does some physical aspect of the universe actually work and try and lose yourself in that.

Alternatively give your brain a break, ride your bike, get some sun on your bones, read some pulp fiction whatever, just get out of your head for awhile,You are driving yourself into despair focusing so much on something that is beyond you to change.

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interloper — Sun, 16 Apr 2017 14:15:36 GMT

I like your suggestions. I do try to distract myself in something immersive and cerebral. I also try to make time for the simple things in life like you said. They both work for a bit then it all slides back into the forefront of my mind.

I thought my way into this. I have tried a lot of different approaches to distract and change my focus from it. The book Kaz suggested is very analytical and I'm hoping it will give me the tools to think my way out of it.

I understand it is beyond me to affect change in the world. Ignoring things you can't change is helpful when it comes to small things like annoying people or the weather. I'm not sure if I'm able to ignore things that are central to our existence. What do you think?

No help available

Kazzl — Sun, 16 Apr 2017 22:18:07 GMT

Hi interloper - good to see you. I'm glad you're reading that book. Here's another you might like - The Brain that Changes Itself, by Dr Norman Doidge. It's a very readable book on neuroplasticity. I found it fascinating.

Now, about those things that are central to our existence. For what it's worth, I take that to mean food, water, shelter, clothing and human connection. Not everyone would add the last but I think it's essential and makes the difference between just being alive and living.

Now, I can't solve famine, I can't fix homelessness, I can't feed, clothe and house everyone who needs it, nor sadly can I befriend everyone and alleviate loneliness. But I can make some simple changes for a few people - make a tiny dent in an almighty big problem.

I'm no saint (not by a long shot), I'm just someone who sees others in need and knows that they could have been me had I not stopped drinking (I'm six years sober) or not had the good fortune to have people who cared about me when I was very ill (I'm bipolar). So, I do little things - volunteer buddy for someone with a serious mental illness, chat to homeless people (who are often craving company) and share food and cigarettes with them, donate clothing etc.

I don't know how much difference my little efforts make, but it's enough for me to see my street friends smile, to have them come up to me and ask me how I am (!), and with one in particular to tell me he's remembered his medication today and is feeling better.

We can't all do this sort of thing and I just happen to work somewhere where they gather. But my point is, there are things you can do to help people in your own community, even if you can't do much to help problems central to our existence in the wider world. Make your world small. Remember that old saying - think globally, act locally.

How about trying to volunteer somewhere?

Hope I don't sound full of myself or like I'm lecturing you - I just want to help you find ideas for change because I really do get what you're saying.

Cheers mate

Kaz

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interloper — Sun, 16 Apr 2017 23:35:53 GMT

When I say ideas central to our existence I mean:

'why are we here?'

'what is the point of doing x, y or z?'

'what meaning exists outside of my own or someone else's head?'

'what is the point of doing anything if everything is ultimately meaningless?'

There are no answers to these questions. It simply is. We didn't exist, then we do for no reason other than chance, and then we stop existing. It is like a science experiment that someone set up and forgot to come back to. Sometimes I can forget this stuff and enjoy ephemeral and transient things. But whether they happened or not doesn't matter because then I go back to feeling like I did before so they may as well not have happened. On a larger scale, that is a summary of someone's life - life is as temporary as the happiness that occurs during it.

On a side note, I on Seligman's optimism test I scored 12 for bad things (mildly pessimistic they won't happen), 6 for good things (greatly pessimistic they will happen), and -6 overall (very pessimistic). I did score 6 for hope, meaning I am hopeful, which he says is the most important score of the test. So I am pessimistic good things will happen, but have hope that things will get better. That seems accurate.

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Broken_Biscuit_Blues — Mon, 17 Apr 2017 05:23:45 GMT

Why are questions central to our existence any more important than the weather or an irritating person?.They are important to you that is all

Somebody else may find their nasty boss causes them far more distress than being a fragile biological creature existing as a product of blind chance.

At the end of the day depression,anxiety, paranoia etc are often the result of the human brain obsessing about something the individual finds distressing.

The post enlightenment western mind is somewhat "hardwired" to try and solve problems, but what if the problem can't be solved?

Your universe is devoid of meaning that is the problem you are trying to solve. Short of having a road to Damascus moment and suddenly finding some fingerprint of architecture in it, you are stuck with a problem that can't be solved.

You are obviously a bright bloke, I really want to see you move on with your life.At the end of the day like theology philosophy tells us precisely nothing, you can do better than that.