topic Great expectations in Depression

Great expectations

white knight — Wed, 25 May 2016 03:37:19 GMT

The scenario. You, your wife and your dog have planned a round Oz driving trip. Your wife's best friend, her husband and their dog will be in their bus. You'll travel together.

Early on in the trip they forge ahead, on each leg they go out of sight and you wonder if you break down that you won't have the help you could have had if he'd kept an eye on you and kept close by.

You drive along an outback highway and it happens, engine oil seal gives way. A tow job. No phone range. Your friends don't know, they were 5 kms ahead. You hitch a lift 60kms to the last town and organise the tow truck. You wait at the van park until its fixed.

Your friends text you when they are finally in phone range about 300km away. You reply that you are OK, the car needed towing and "this is why one should keep watch on the other party"

You also tell them to continue with their holiday but you are fuming inside.

There are many questions but these are the ones I need answering

- it it unreasonable to expect your friends to automatically realise for safety reasons to stay together?

- if you think so and they don't share that view, would that difference mean you could not ever be close mates?

- is there a bare basics level of mateship that you expect from friends.

As we are in our van waiting for our car repairs my dear wife wants me to remain friendly towards our "friends" which I would now find difficult. But I'll try. Well meet about 5 days from now.

Here's the thing. Had the tables been reversed when I found out my mate was stranded or even settled back at the caravan park, I would have driven back there to support them. In fact on two occasions that happened on our trip.

Is it unreasonable to base your friendship with someone upon your own values?

How can you calculate acquaintance will make a committed "mate" in the long term? So you can save time and not waste effort on someone that would leave you for dead on an outback highway?

Are we unfair having expectations?

Two mates head off riding their trail bikes. One gets a flat tyre. The other says "too bad, its not my bike that has a flat tyre" and rides off. It would be a given that they'd help each other in such circumstances.

But my sister hit the nail on the head. "Our father always went over and beyond the call of duty and always got hurt".

Im tired of people hurting me. It has to stop. The walls are going up!

I just have to find a way of doing that and putting on a smiling face at the same time

Tony WK

Great expectations

Marcsa — Wed, 25 May 2016 03:57:39 GMT

Hi Tony WK,

I hear you . And I'm with you. I find it similar when one is always the one to arrange get togethers and I go out of my way to do something and the favour is not returned. I suspect all you wanted was a rant and I understand.

Cheers, M

Great expectations

Neil_1 — Wed, 25 May 2016 03:58:38 GMT

Hi Tony,

Firstly great to hear from you and secondly and most importantly, that you are all ok (and I say all, referring to you, your wife and your dog).

I couldn’t imagine how much you must (and possibly still are) be fuming from that – I’m fuming about it and I’m thousands of km’s removed from it.

Here’s the thing – it was a “planned” around Oz driving trip. One would have thought, that you’d travel as a pair – especially on some of those roads where it is pretty remote – and hey, one never knows what might happen. I mean, an engine oil seal could give way.

You said you would have turned around and gone back – I believe you probably wouldn’t had to, because you’d have been within eye-sight and immediately seen that something was amiss.

Now to your questions: I’ll put your questions in italics, so my answer stands out.

- it it unreasonable to expect your friends to automatically realise for safety reasons to stay together?
Mentioned above, but totally acceptable and common sense should have made them stay close.

- if you think so and they don't share that view, would that difference mean you could not ever be close mates?
Bloody difficult – in fact, I’d be biting my tongue not to tell them to drive on and enjoy the rest of their lives.

- is there a bare basics level of mateship that you expect from friends.
Yes. And in these circumstances, absolutely – it’s not like you were travelling say from one town to another in Victoria, where you’d have mobile coverage all the way; and if something happened, you could phone the “other” immediately.

One would have thought you’d have been pretty good mates in the first place to undertake such a journey and adventure – and now, well that mate-ship has been rocked.

Your wife wishes to continue to be friendly – and that’s fine. Though I wonder was she at all “miffed” by them continuing on and therefore, leaving you both to fend for yourselves?

I’ll leave it at this – hope I didn’t over-step the mark any.

Neil

Great expectations

pipsy — Wed, 25 May 2016 03:59:10 GMT

Hi Tony, unfortunately not everyone thinks the same as 'us'. We all would like to believe our friends would be as worried about us as we worry about them. It's not 'wrong' to expect our friends to automatically stay together for safety reasons. however, as I said before, everyone reacts to fear, concern, differently. It's the same as helping someone in a 'tight spot' and expecting a thank you, at least. When we are not acknowledged for our kind deeds, it hurts because even though we may not have done something for acknowledgement, it still would be nice to be acknowledged. I think accepting people for who are they, rather than what we expect, is more realistic. The old saying 'do unto others' etc, comes into it a bit. However realistically speaking, 'give without expecting' would be a more accurate view. I've been kicked several times for expecting more than I got. It doesn't stop me, I just don't expect any more. Basic human nature, being what it is, is selfish, 'every man for himself', is the norm, rather than the exception.

does the above make sense?

Lynda.

Great expectations

white knight — Wed, 25 May 2016 04:28:23 GMT

The trouble us Pipsy, that "every man for himself", I'd have guilt feelings for weeks if I was my friend.

My friend doesn't have one mate in the world. I thought we could be.

I'm inclined to agree with Neil. I will be biting my tongue.

My wife and I have had many discussions on this. She feels that she in principle agrees with my side but doesn't think the trip should be threatened in any way. Hence I shouldn't have sent that text message about keeping watch on the other.

But we are all different.

I suppose I'd never go through a desert with him.

He often says " I don't care". Maybe that's the problem.

Marcsa made the point about arranging get togethers. Say I rang around 12 friends and invited them for a BBQ. Each said they'd come. But not one came.

If you had an idealistic non expectation attitude you wouldn't be upset. But you'd have a fridge full of food SO you would have expectations wouldn't you?.

It isn't just a rant Marcsa...I fall into depression and confusion over these issues/differences with people. Forever being disappointed. While the non carers haven't got a worry in the world....

They better not get engine troubles.

Tony WK

Great expectations

Starwolf — Wed, 25 May 2016 04:45:53 GMT

Hi Tony,

My heart goes out to you. A difficult episode along the road is bad enough but feeling let down by someone you trusted is even worse. Unfortunately, only hard times let us know who is really here with and for us...something positive although such realization does hurt. I hope this bad experience hasn't dampened your spirit of adventure !

I can understand where you come from. I have also been a loyal friend and have persistently gone out of my way to help others only to be let down when I was the one in need of support. But you know what...I wouldn't let other people's actions (or lack of) affect the way I am. Because I'd rather be me than become like them. By changing me, they would have won.

It is true that I have become way more cautious about who I help. I feel that letting people take advantage of others is doing them no long-term favor. I probably would not OFFER assistance to those who have betrayed my trust unless they are desperate enough to ask. Then I would hope the experience could help mend their way. There's never a guarantee this would happen but I would at least know that I gave it my best shot.

Your father raised you well. You are thoughtful and have a big heart. People like you shouldn't have to face such disappointment. The sad fact is they often do...(but not always). But it is better than being disappointed with YOURSELF for not doing what you know is the right thing.

No one can tell you how to react. But I feel your wife has the right idea. No matter how polite you remain, a distance has been created. Sooner or later these people will perceive it. They will work out how you feel and why for themselves without any 'unpleasantness" from your part. All credit to you. Whether they learn something from it or not is out of your hands.

Tony, this world needs more people like you. You're doing a great job here, offering solace and wise advice to those in need. Recognition sure feels good when it happens but expecting it only sets us up for disappointment.Your compassion IS appreciated by those who know a good thing when they come across it.

Great expectations

pipsy — Wed, 25 May 2016 05:01:24 GMT

Tony, I actually did arrange a barby once. I did have a fridge full, no-one came. I was upset, but instead of letting it get me, I managed to give the food to neighbours. I could've stamped my feet, had a temper tantrum etc, what good would that have done? Allowing other's thoughtlessness to impede on your nature also tends to let them see your vulnerable side. While this (in theory) sounds great, all it does in re-inforce the fact that you get hurt. True friends won't deliberately hurt you, if they realise they have in the first instant, they usually do acknowledge. If they don't, obviously their friendship isn't as true. I personally would never deliberately, or otherwise, kick you. Actually, Tony, I have found when someone says 'I don't care' they do, they use the I don't care to cover, to appear to have no feelings. Like you with your guilt feelings, if you abandoned someone in need, I would feel guilty too. All I meant was, not everyone cares enough to feel the guilt. It would be a ideal world if everyone did care about everyone, but it's not an ideal world. If you did follow Neil's approach to 'bite your tongue', given you have a conscience I don't think you could. Easy to say 'say nothing' hard to do when your heart and conscience says otherwise. You can't change the kind, thoughtful, person you are. Perhaps maybe think about who to invite, next time you decide to embark on a journey like this. Don't let 'bad apples' stop you. I would like to think, if you and I ever met, we could become friends. You have always shown me true friendship, for that, I am truly grateful.

Lynda

Great expectations

Elizabeth CP — Wed, 25 May 2016 06:20:12 GMT

Tony, I am so sorry this happened to you. This is one reason I wouldn't attempt to drive in the outback because I would be scared of breaking down with no help.

Looking at this from a learning point of view to all of us.

If we are planning something with someone else we need to talk first and understand each others expectations. If you know that the other party wants company when its convenient but wants to remain independent going at their own pace means you can choose to pull out knowing the other party have different ideas about responsibility. Much better than finding out when things go wrong. So the answer to your first question ( is it unreasonable to expect your friends to automatically realize for safety reasons to stay together?) People are imperfect & some are thoughtless & don't live by the rules we think make sense (ie watch out for each other & care for each other)so don't assume others will live by the rules you live by.

We can be friends with people who think differently to us but only while you are doing things which their differences will not impact on you. For example I get on really well with my brother but some of his attitudes are different to mine so I avoid putting myself in a situation where his attitude or way of doing things will conflict with mine but there is enough things where we support each other & enjoy being together so maintaining the relationship works.

I can understand your wife's point of view in trying to be polite & friendly. This is NOT because they deserve it (they don't) but telling them how you really feel although justified will not help & may make things worse. If & when you meet up again I would have a serious discussion with them (maybe led by your wife who is more likely to remain calm) & then make a final decision of what to do for the future of this trip. They would have to demonstrate a real change in behaviour & attitude before I would drive in the desert with them.

I really hope you can find a way to continue your trip even with modifications to ensure your safety. You deserve to have a good trip. Now is a good time to review why you wanted this trip & what is important to you then work out what to do to enjoy the rest of the trip.

Great expectations

pipsy — Wed, 25 May 2016 06:38:11 GMT

Hi Elizabeth. I get where you're saying about discussion first before we undertake anything involving friends/rellies etc. However, the problem from that could be, people saying one thing, doing another, maybe not intentionally. Everyone has been 'promised' something from someone at some time or other. Not everyone sticks to the promise made unfortunately. It's easy when making plans with others to say, we'll meet here at such and such a time. Unfortunately, along the journey, some unforseen incident, (breakdown, sightseeing etc) often means change of plans without necessarily having the foresight to inform others of change of plans. When this happens the people involved get understandably angry/upset etc. Then when they 'catch-up' and are told what's happened, they get laughed at for being upset in the first place. Tony understood everyone was in 'sync' with plans, it seems he was the only one in 'sync'. If Tony can overcome his initial anger and hurt, yes, he will prove to be the 'better person'. Tony, to me, has to be the most truthful, understanding, kindest person I have ever been in contact with. Hopefully, this incident won't change his personality. It may make him wary about future planning with people, understandable. I just hope, with his wife's help, he doesn't put everyone in the same category. None of us here on the forums at BB would ever treat him like that.

Lynda.

Great expectations

JessF — Wed, 25 May 2016 06:50:39 GMT

Hello Tony, I've read through the whole thread and everyone's replies a couple of times, and I wonder if I might be a bit of a devil's advocate here. Taking as a given that you ended up in a dangerous situation, and thank god you are ok, I just wanted to review your telling of what happened so I can make sure I understand the details.

You're travelling together, but the other party is zooming ahead. You're not in contact with them between stops, and in some cases this isn't possible because there is no phone coverage. You break down, hitch the lift etc. The next thing you hear is that your friend texts you to check on where you are. You tell your friend what has happened, and then you tell them everything is fine and to keep going.

I just wonder whether this is an incident of an unfortunate communication breakdown rather than a wilful malicious intent. Your friends were unable to text you until they were 300km from you, and at that point it would not have seemed very practical to drive all the way back to you, plus you told them you were fine and to keep going.

You of course know more about your friend's personality than any of us, but some other possibilities I see here are:

- Your friends aren't as 'safety-savvy' as you are, and forging ahead, assuming everything was fine and you were behind them, simply didn't notice that you weren't behind them until it was too late, and by then they couldn't contact you

- Your friends could well be very upset and worried about what happened, but haven't had the opportunity to tell you yet - if you had asked them to hold up or come back rather than moving on, they may well have dropped everything and come back

I guess my point is, perhaps not make too many assumptions until all the facts are in. You've had a frightening and upsetting experience, and you feel abandoned by your friend. This may not have been his intention at all.

A final point, and of course hindsight is always wonderful, but if you could wind back the clock to before the breakdown and had posted just the first part of your story, I would have suggested that you contact your friend in a friendly, joky way to say "hey, have you reached the moon yet?" and after you have a laugh just slip in that you'd like them to slow down so you can keep sight of each other in case something happens.

Great expectations

White_Rose — Wed, 25 May 2016 07:39:15 GMT

Hello Tony

I am so relieved you were not in more trouble and that you came out OK. I have just read this thread and now I look again I realise it was only posted today. There are so many replies I presumed it was several days old and I had missed it because I have been off-line for a day or two. Similar reason, got uptight and needed a timeout to recuperate.

I suspect many of us have had a similar situation and no matter how many times we tell ourselves we will never do it again, we do put our trust in others. I had a similar incident when I asked for a lift and was refused. I was gobsmacked. So I stepped back from the friendship. Courtesy etc when we met but absolutely no trust. And yet I felt guilty about it. She apparently never noticed and went on with her life as though nothing had happened. I was so surprised I wondered if I had been a cheeky asking for a lift. Someone else took me home. I think what made it worse was that it was getting dark and a walk home meant walking along a dirt road with no lights.

Not much use to cause a fuss and I really believe even if I had spelled out my concern she would shrug it off. So the friendship lapsed on my part. You are right about unspoken agreements between friends. I expect people who profess to care about me to act in that way as I take care of my friends and give them a helping hand. And thinking about what was happening behind me on the road to my mates is something I would expect.

I do agree you should travel together. Basic common sense.

So what are you going to do about your friend? I would be as upset with this as I was in my incident. If they cannot realise how much you felt let down, and it appears this way, then let them go.

I hope you are feeling better by now and able to look at the incident with fewer of the feelings of betrayal and hurt. You say if the positions had been reversed you would have gone back. In reality the position would not have been reversed because you would be keeping in contact with your mate in the rear. You are aware of the potential problems, even if you cannot stop them happening, and take steps to minimize the fallout from a problem. Your mate obviously assumed all would be well. Sounds a bit like a politician.

I am very glad you are all OK and I really want you to enjoy the rest of your travels. Keep in touch.

Mary

Great expectations

blondguy — Wed, 25 May 2016 07:52:20 GMT

Hi Tony

Your wonderful wife is doing as my ex girlfriend would do...'Keep the peace' I understand her point..no problem.

If I was in my XR8 and ahead or behind you I would always stay within a 'safe' parameter of you so both of us could benefit if either one of us would have a mechanical screw up and were 'stuck'

Thats the trouble with 'Common Courtesy' Tony......its not very common.

I wouldnt be a happy camper at all. I have an innate sense of awareness that wouldnt let you get too far without a visual....As a friend...I could never leave you out of reasonable sight....ever..

Its something I couldnt do to you Tony WK. With all due respect to your wife of course.

Paul

Great expectations

HA1 — Wed, 25 May 2016 10:55:39 GMT

Hi Tony - it's been a while.

Since we last spoke, I have also hit the road. Traveling long distances to find that place I want to call home. That aside, your post raises some very good questions. Let me try and qive you my spin of these:

- "is it unreasonable to expect your friends to automatically realise for safety reasons to stay together?" Of course not. It is an unwritten rule with people who spend their life on the road that you look out for each other. Otherwise - why travel together? I have chosen to travel alone and never in a convoy (however tempting that may be). If I want to share a few moments with others around the camp kitchen, well In can do that even if I travel alone. You will understand that there is a fair bit of self interest there also.

- if you think so and they don't share that view, would that difference mean you could not ever be close mates? Ha! Is that me asking the question! I have found that traveling around solo, you find close friends from the most unexpected places and backgrounds. I dont need to have them in my rear view mirror all the time. To be frank, in my time on the road, I have made more meaningful friends than in my whole lifetime.

- is there a bare basics level of mateship that you expect from friends. Yes - understanding without questioning. I am fortunate that, on the road on have found this type of mateship. A type of genuine mateship that I never felt I had with friends.

Oh bugger. Having re-read that it is a bit of a ramble. But I hope you get the gist of what I am saying. There is a message there somewhere.

I wish you well on your travels, and I really hope that by chance we may meet on the road. (Are you on your motorbike?).

Safe travels

Great expectations

pipsy — Wed, 25 May 2016 11:31:58 GMT

Tony, is this the trip you took when we were at the seminar? Geoff mentioned you'd had problems. That part would've been pretty scary. The loneliness with being miles out of anywhere with a break-down and no way of reaching anyone only adds to the problem. Unfortunately, because the others had no way of knowing what had happened, there was nothing they could do. Had they have been just ahead, it's possible they still might not have 'clicked' that something had happened. They may have just thought you'd stopped for some reason. Sometimes people traveling in front don't constantly check their rear view mirror. Perhaps people like these have to be told when to do and what to do. It could be they're just so caught up in their own world, they just don't think. I'm not excusing them, no way, it's just that some people don't think - period. I, like Jess, are just so thankful you and wife and dog are okay. That's so good to know. I know deep down you may never re-invite them away again, fair enough, but, at the same time, I can't see you totally ignoring them for long. I don't honestly believe that's you. I also believe, even after everything that happened, you would probably still be the first one to offer them assistance. I'm so sorry if I offended you with my first post, that was not the intention.

Lynda.

Great expectations

white knight — Wed, 25 May 2016 12:56:15 GMT

No offense taken on any post. They have all been very interedting .

I've read them all aloud to my wife and we've discussed them at length.

Yes we had a broken caravan drawbar twice. Fixed and all fine.

My wife knows me very well and she pointed out that these expectations once breached become to a point of obsession...it simply isn't a case of disappointment. That anger takes days to calm down from.

I don't think Mrs Dools is accurate with lack of communication more like a less level of care from our male friend. It has yet again resulted in hurt and I have to adjust. We have discussed this as a priority to save our trip with our friends.

Clearly I cannot rely on him to travel with. So, travelling from point to point will be done at our own pace with no regard as to their schedule. Going out of sight 20 kms from the caravan park makes it pointless to trip together.

I want my wife and her friend to spend time together so that will continue. I'll be civil to my now male acquaintance knowing that my full trust in others is risky with him. This is for my own protection not tit for tat.

I've taken on board comments that I would still assist them if they needed it. But I'm tired of the "one way" consideration deal I get with others.

K. I'm not on our motorcycle. We are towing our van I built for this trip.

I thank you all for your kind words. I had no "great expectations" from the post. My problems of sensitivity, obsession and over reaction has been with me forever. It isn't easy to combat them.

The various responses help so much. I don't feel wrong in being hurt/angry. In fact my wife agrees with that. But she won't allow it to effect her friendships.

I've learned that to go on a trip for me we should do it alone. I'm simply not flexible enough to accept others lack of consideration.

As Paul said "common sense isn't that common".

Time is a good healer. In 5 days time we will catch up to them and by then I would be calm enough to portray the previous happy guy.

Thankyou for your support. I was pretty worked up.

Tony WK

Great expectations

white knight — Wed, 25 May 2016 17:53:48 GMT

My bad...it was JessF not Mrs Dools with devils advocate suggestions.

Tonight I went for a walk. I met an indigenous man sitting on a nature strip. He referred to me as "chappy" which I going amusing.

We talked about his elder who was his uncle. "Arhh uncle yes, that white fella word but yeah chappy my elder my uncle yes". We chatted some more about his life then thanked him and offered appreciation to his elders the traditional owners of the land.

Suddenly my issues about not fully trusting my travelling friend were insignificant.

Diversion, it works so well.

Tony WK

Great expectations

White_Rose — Wed, 25 May 2016 22:41:20 GMT

Tony, I think this thread sums up life and its difficulties. We start happy and doing something we like, an event happens which causes us pain and trouble and we feel as though the end of the world has come. Then we meet someone or something that changes our whole perspective on the relative importance of life's hiccups. The world gets right side up again, and although the bloom has gone from one area we still have our desire to move on and become what we want.

Although this past couple of weeks has seen the bloom diminish on a couple of things in my life, your post has brought the sunshine back for me.

Many thanks my friend.

Mary

Great expectations

Neil_1 — Wed, 25 May 2016 22:52:53 GMT

Hi there Tony,

Mate you can see straight away how cared for and supported you are on this site – as White Rose said, she was away for a short while and saw this thread with all the posts and thought it must have been days old, but you only put it up yesterday. Such a large reaction from others shows what an awesome person you are and highly regarded you are in our community.

There’s been some great posts above; and I can understand your level of hurt and level of disappointment – and then stemming from that, it’s oh so hard to just let that slide by. We dwell on things (sometimes from far afield), BUT when those things are actually right in our own backyard and happened to us, the inner turmoil caused really does screw us up. I full understand this emotional side of you – I unfortunately have this as well.

I do know of others who could just turn a blind eye to this and think, oh well, it’s happened, no point in being churned up inside about it. Anyway, I think you’ve got my point here.

I’ve posted once and said it and will say it again – on such a journey where you just do not know is around the corner, it should not be too much to ask to stay within eye-sight with each other. I mean, firstly you’re on a holiday, so what is the point of racing ahead; and secondly, by doing such a thing, if something should happen (and it did), then by the other person going on ahead, they have no idea what could be happening way behind.

It could have been any kind of animal way out where you are; that could have gone across the road and caused an accident, which could have been a hell of a lot worse – and thank goodness that wasn’t the issue here. But you never know.

When I read that you said this guy has no mates – I can see why. I have a blood relation ( some would call a brother, but I don’t anymore ) who is very much like this person you speak of – actually he wouldn’t even consider going on a trip with another mate, cause he doesn’t have any. He’s going to live the rest of his life in his own little angry and shitful cocoon – I’m probably stepping too far over the line with regard to this ‘mate’ of yours, but my bottom line is that I’d be having as little to do with this person as possible.

It’s just unfortunate that your wife is good friend’s with his wife.

Cheers mate,

Neil

Great expectations

Neil_1 — Wed, 25 May 2016 23:00:24 GMT

Sorry all, as I never like doing this – 2 posts in a row; but I’ve just remembered another thing that I wanted to comment on.

Tony, you said: “Suddenly my issues about not fully trusting my travelling friend were insignificant.”

Yes, while that may be true, that I consider is like someone saying “Yes, you might be struggling, but there are heaps people worse off than you” (or words to that effect).

I’m not detracting one bit about what the issues would be for that Indigenous man that you spoke to; but he has his. You have yours. Yours are deeply imbedded in you and because of your nature, they are badly affecting you.

So yes, feel empathy for man you spoke to on the nature strip, but when you leave and move on, your issues are still going to be the main focus for you and how you move forward, sideways or backwards.

Sorry, just wanted to make mention of this.

Over and out … for the time being.

Great expectations

white knight — Thu, 26 May 2016 00:18:25 GMT

Yes I get you Neil.

I'm not criticizing my wife much because we all think differently. But her views are that most people travel alone. It means I had the expectation of relying on this guy to make the trip less insecure.

So I'm moving on and I think I can forgive but not forget.

Tony WK